A Coup, or not a coup...

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Physic FormerlyHasRez	A Coup, or not a coup...		Lead	[-]
Posts: 2001 06-30-09 9:45 AM	Tags : None barely making the news, but i suspect clinton blew the call in Honduras. all i'm seeing on the media (ie ABC) is the Honduran military threw the president out and pulled off a coup; i've even heard they're now running a military junta. then i read the BBC this morning and: The replacement government has denied that any coup has taken place, saying that the Supreme Court had ordered the army to remove Mr Zelaya for acting unconstitutionally. the wall street journal had an article out yesterday that stated the president was ignoring supreme court decisions to not do things like hold an election using ballots supplied by venezula. so how does a military pull off a coup when they're acting under orders from the nation's supreme court?
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vizco		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 5449 06-30-09 10:04 AM Raid Peon	Any attempt to remove a leftist office holder is automatically a coup or at the very least "illegal." Didn't you know that? Zelaya was trying to arrange to run for a second term. It is unconstitutional in Honduras to run for a second term; it is even unconstitutional to try to amend the Honduran constitution to remove the one-term restriction. (This is a country that historically has had trouble over this issue, as you might guess.) He decided to hold a referendum on the topic, which the Honduran Attorney General and Supreme Court said was illegal and unconstitutional. He decided to hold it anyway. The "coup" resulted in the speaker of the legislature being put in office to serve out the remaining months of Zelaya's term, not a military junta or dictator. I love the line from the BBC article about Obama and Chavez being in agreement on the issue. Amazing. "You can't reason someone out of something they weren't reasoned into." - Jonathan Swift
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ZydallonTrismegistus		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1618 06-30-09 10:23 AM It's Good to be Germane	Yea. Doesn't seem like a coup to me if the military is acting under the orders of the country's supreme court/legislature to remove the guy that was trying to violate the country's consitution. I can see why Chavez and Castro denounce it, since they want Zelaya to turn Honduras into a glorious worker's paradise like their countries are. But I was rather disappointed to see Obama coming down on that side of the fence. Not overly surprised perhaps, but still disappointed.
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Graz Tundrawolf		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1323 06-30-09 10:33 AM Okay, Maybe more than a bit Rabid	Seems to me the rule of law was followed in a country that historically has a bad record. Seems like a win for fair democracy. There are just two rules of governance in a free society: Mind your own business. Keep your hands to yourself. - P.J. O'Rourke
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Ersiusp		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3829 06-30-09 12:36 PM 1-900-Santa	This made me wonder...the US President is CIC. What should the military do if he gives illegal orders? Who can countermand his order? Is there a legal scenario where the SCOTUS could give the US military orders? I have no idea on any of this stuff, just wondering, really. "A government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth." -Ronald Reagan
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Physic FormerlyHasRez		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2001 06-30-09 12:46 PM	>Is there a legal scenario where the SCOTUS could give the US military orders? i don't think so, but honduran law isn't the same. in fact, the military is responsible for running elections in honduras. the supreme court directed the military to not run ballots provided by venezula for the election. the dood has been running a power grab, has been called on it, and from everything i can see was properly removed under the law in honduras. so here's our own administration wanting a chavez-wannabe back in office. i question the wisdom of this decision on our part.
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Ersiusp		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3829 06-30-09 1:12 PM 1-900-Santa	I know the laws are different. The key question in my rambling was what legal recourse is there in US law to countermand illegal presidential orders? It's a hypothetical situation. (depending on who you ask =P) "A government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth." -Ronald Reagan
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vizco		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 5449 06-30-09 1:33 PM Raid Peon	The key question in my rambling was what legal recourse is there in US law to countermand illegal presidential orders? It's a hypothetical situation. Well... Given our participation in lots of post-WW2 trials and treaties, soldiers given an illegal order can't use the "just following orders" excuse, so the first line of defense is to "just say no" instead. You (soldier or civilian) can also sue the government or the President as an individual. Case law on that is kind of mixed, to say the least. Good luck with that. The only real recourses are impeachment or the 25th Amendment (Presidential incapacity). The latter was actually used in an old political potboiler I remember reading years ago, title long forgotten. The President was doing all sorts of loopy things and the cabinet decided he had gone crazy. "You can't reason someone out of something they weren't reasoned into." - Jonathan Swift
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creac		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3190 06-30-09 4:47 PM Mortal Wombat Administrator	I would expect that if the US military felt that the President was giving illegal orders that the smart thing would be for the Joint Chiefs to approach the Vice President and Cabinet (through Sec Def?) and encourage them to find a political solution. Alternatively, they could petition the SCotUS to issue some sort of order, but that seems a really messy option (relative to the obvious mess of the hypothetical being posed :-) "But if the while I think on thee, dear friend, All losses are restored and sorrows end."
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Klark		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2426 07-01-09 4:59 PM	Physic FormerlyHasRez wrote: the wall street journal had an article out yesterday that stated the president was ignoring supreme court decisions to not do things like hold an election using ballots supplied by venezula. Seems that the President of Honduras was trying to run an improper election, the courts said no, and the military was put into action to stop him according to their Constitution. Seems to me like they were following the rules. And of course Obama would have to speak out against this! What would we do if Clinton was impeached and convicted and then sat in the oval office saying "no I won't go"?
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Klark		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2426 07-01-09 5:04 PM	Ersiusp wrote: I know the laws are different. The key question in my rambling was what legal recourse is there in US law to countermand illegal presidential orders? It's a hypothetical situation. (depending on who you ask =P) Well, the military's first oath is to the US Constitution, not to the president. But Vizco is correct in that the third oath (to follow the orders of the president) is based on legal orders. I actually read this book recently: Balance of Power. Basically, it's a novel where (in the opposite of the war powers act) Congress wanted to go to war but the President did not. Would the military follow a constitutional act of congress or follow their CiC?
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fatesdefiance		#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4989 07-01-09 6:41 PM Community Member	Klark wrote: I actually read this book recently: Balance of Power. Basically, it's a novel where (in the opposite of the war powers act) Congress wanted to go to war but the President did not. Would the military follow a constitutional act of congress or follow their CiC? The country would officially go into a state of war, but the military would not act upon that unless so directed by the President. The Congress could not direct the military. However, Congress could impeach the President for failing to act. Sounds like an interesting premise, though. Hunter Tarryn Valewalker -- Twisted Fates (Prexus - Retired) Nightshade Tarryn Valewalker -- Kingfisher Brigade EQ2 - Unrest Tarryn of Dale, Hunter -- Dies Irae LotRO - Meneldor
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Borofin		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4925 07-01-09 8:05 PM Community Member	I've been holding off starting this topic and the significance of the differing reactions of the administration to the Iranian and Honduras situations. I strongly urge those who voted for Obama but have started to have doubts to really examine and think about it. I believe that Obama is really showing his cards on this one and revealing himself. "Hey, Obama has just nationalized nothing more and nothing less than General Motors. Comrade Obama! Fidel, careful or we are going to end up to his right,"--Hugo Chavez, June 2, 2009 Lan astaslem
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fatesdefiance		#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4989 07-01-09 8:16 PM Community Member	Borofin wrote: I believe that Obama is really showing his cards on this one and revealing himself. Doubt it. I think it's a kneejerk, "he was democratically elected, so can't be removed by other than democratic means" type of response. (Disregarding that our own elected President can be removed by other than strictly democratic means also.) I don't know the Honduran constitution--it's quite possible that what happened was completely in line with it...or it might not be. Ideally, if a ruler was trying to shred the constitution that defined his powers, the people would be able to shut him down with the vote. But the ideal isn't always consonant with reality. While I don't like the idea of the military ousting a democratically elected leader, I acknowledge the possibility that in some cases the alternatives might be even worse. Hunter Tarryn Valewalker -- Twisted Fates (Prexus - Retired) Nightshade Tarryn Valewalker -- Kingfisher Brigade EQ2 - Unrest Tarryn of Dale, Hunter -- Dies Irae LotRO - Meneldor
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Physic FormerlyHasRez		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2001 07-01-09 8:23 PM	>While I don't like the idea of the military ousting a democratically elected leader i generally don't like the idea either. if a country's supreme court can legally instruct the military to do so, and does...then i dont have a problem with it. oddly this is what seems to have happened.
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Borofin		#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4925 07-01-09 9:07 PM Community Member	Fates, Obama knew full well the nature of Zelaya and this is why he supports him. Yes, we have an anti-American President of the United States of America. Obama is also being proactive to head off one possible future scenario that will be much closer to home, one which I've talked about here. "Hey, Obama has just nationalized nothing more and nothing less than General Motors. Comrade Obama! Fidel, careful or we are going to end up to his right,"--Hugo Chavez, June 2, 2009 Lan astaslem
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Klark		#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2426 07-07-09 11:51 PM	"America cannot and should not seek to impose any system of government on any other country, nor would we presume to choose which party or individual should run a country," Obama said. "Even as we meet here today, America supports now the restoration of the democratically elected president of Honduras, even though he has strongly opposed American policies." "We do so not because we agree with him," Obama said of Zelaya. "We do so because we respect the universal principle that people should choose their own leaders, whether they are leaders we agree with or not." Now, the Congress and Supreme Court of Honduras set in motion actions to kick out Zelaya for charges that included treason. All parts of their government were in agreement and, per their constitution, ordered the military to exile the president. What part of that is not the democratic process? And isn't Obama saying specifically who should run Honduras despite saying that he would not presume to choose which person should run a country?
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vizco		#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 5449 07-08-09 6:54 AM Raid Peon	"America cannot and should not seek to impose any system of government on any other country, nor would we presume to choose which party or individual should run a country," Obama said. LOL: except when we do. Obama either didn't read or doesn't care about the provisions of the Honduran constitution that make what Zelaya was trying to do unconstitutional and punishable by removal from office. If we force Honduras to ignore its own constitution, that seems to be imposing a system of government. "You can't reason someone out of something they weren't reasoned into." - Jonathan Swift
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Snarfo		#18	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1877 07-08-09 8:42 AM Captain America	vizco wrote: Any attempt to remove a leftist office holder is automatically a coup or at the very least "illegal." Didn't you know that? Zelaya was trying to arrange to run for a second term. It is unconstitutional in Honduras to run for a second term; it is even unconstitutional to try to amend the Honduran constitution to remove the one-term restriction. (This is a country that historically has had trouble over this issue, as you might guess.) He decided to hold a referendum on the topic, which the Honduran Attorney General and Supreme Court said was illegal and unconstitutional. He decided to hold it anyway. The "coup" resulted in the speaker of the legislature being put in office to serve out the remaining months of Zelaya's term, not a military junta or dictator. I love the line from the BBC article about Obama and Chavez being in agreement on the issue. Amazing. Don't forget Fidel! You can include him that group as well as Daniel Ortega, quite the foursome. Its not a coup and shame on hillary and obama for supporting Zelaya. It just shows both are complete idiots and would rather score points with idiots like Hugo and Fidel than do the right thing.
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Klark		#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2426 07-11-09 10:18 AM	Obama said this in Africa today: "No business wants to invest in a place where the government skims 20 percent off the top, or the head of the Port Authority is corrupt. No person wants to live in a society where the rule of law gives way to the rule of brutality and bribery. "That is not democracy, that is tyranny, even if occasionally you sprinkle an election in there," he said, "and now is the time for that style of governance to end." Yet, he supports Zelaya for Presiednt. There is a distinct gap between what Obama says and what he does.
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Morkenlar		#20	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3130 07-11-09 4:01 PM	No business wants to invest in a place where the government skims 20 percent off the top... Someone refresh my memory - what is the corporate tax rate again? Mork "A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul"
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