http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/04/21/extra-terrestrial-life.html
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Ididar Tzan |
ET Likely doesn't exist .... |
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I like this. Even though it goes against my personal and irrational beliefs, at least someone took the time to take a stab at it. Although, it rests on some
pretty big assumptions and I'm sure could be cast into doubt in a heartbeat. But, still interesting.
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/04/21/extra-terrestrial-life.html |
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Feydakin Rainsong |
#1 | |||
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Pretty big assumptions, indeed. Why couldn't conditions exist for life to begin early in a planetary system's lifecycle, such that intelligent life
could develop early on and potentially survive for many billions of years?
I tend to think that life is very likely abundant throughout the universe, in very simple forms. If the origin of life on Earth is panspermia, then it stands to reason that the same life that "contaminated" a proto-Earth is likely to have been propagated to other worlds as well. More complex forms are certainly less abundant, and "intelligent" or sentient creatures are probably fairly rare (though "rare" is a funny term in relation to the size and age of the universe). The number of systems supporting life capable of detecting other systems supporting life, however, is probably damn near zero (we can't even do it at this juncture - we can barely detect other planetary systems, and our methods are largely through indirect observation). So I would contend that it's a reasonable position to suggest that intelligent life is not unique in the universe, it's just that the obstacles of the vast expanses of time and space make it nigh-impossible for any of them to ever detect one another, much less contact one another. It would take superluminal travel technology in order to bridge those gaps, but even FTL travel doesn't help you figure out WHERE to go look for other life. |
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Ididar Tzan |
#2 | |||
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Yep. Pretty big assumptions. It also assumes that life has to develop the way it did on earth. We don't know anything about alternative forms of life (i.e.
non-carbon based) and as such have no way to calculate how likely they are to arise. Our knowledge is so slim on the topic its embarassing.
But, I like to see the discussion approached in a scientific manner anyhow ... no matter how many assumptions. Least then you can discuss the assumptions, revise calculations, and so forth. |
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Ersiusp |
#3 | |||
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I think contemplating non-carbon life is like contemplating movement in a fourth dimension. Even if it's possible, most minds can't encompass it.
Not to mention that chemically, Carbon and the column of elements below it are some of the most reactive(? I can't think of the right word, it's been too long since I took chemistry) possible. Of that column, Carbon is by far the most abundant in the universe. I think it's totally possible that silicon(or even higher atomic number elements)-based life has evolved somewhere in the universe, but it's going to be even more rare than carbon-based life.
"You and I are told increasingly we have to choose between a left or right. Well I'd like to suggest there is no such
thing as a left or right. There's only an up or down: [up] man's old -- old-aged dream, the ultimate in individual freedom consistent with law and
order, or down to the ant heap of totalitarianism. And regardless of their sincerity, their humanitarian motives, those who would trade our freedom for
security have embarked on this downward course."
-Ronald Reagan |
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Zifnab |
#4 | |||
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I was thinking about this. That intelligent life tends to self destruct such that it's impossibly rare at any given period of time. Additionally, should
two seperate spiecies ever come in contact with one another it would probably lead to the end of both as neither would have any immunity to the pathogens the
other carries.
And if faster than light travel is impossible (or highly improbable) then any one civilization is doomed to eventual extinction without more habitable planets within reach by conventional travel. |
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Soygen |
#5 | |||
Zifnab wrote: Any more of my dreams you would like to destroy this evening!??! *cries*
I'm not givin' you attitude. I just want another drink.
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Ersiusp |
#6 | |||
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We're omnivores and look how aggressive we are. Imagine how bad a carnivore evolved to sentience would be...
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Feydakin Rainsong |
#7 | |||
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Zif, your point about life self-destructing is summarized in the Drake Equation
popularized by Carl Sagan.
The Drake equation states that: Basically the "L" term in that equation takes into account how long an intelligent, broadcasting civilization survives. In our case, that's less than 100 years, really. That means that any signals we've sent out could only possibly have reached stars less than 100 light-years away. Even if we went on to survive as a technologically capable species for thousands of years, any system within a radius that could receive those signals would be receiving signals thousands of years old. Even if they could get here or respond, they (or their signal) could still arrive long after we're all dead from war or natural catastrophes. |
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fatesdefiance |
#8 | |||
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Would this be a good point to speculate about the lights recently seen in the Arizona sky?
Hunter Tarryn Valewalker -- Twisted Fates
(Prexus - Retired) Nightshade Tarryn Valewalker -- Kingfisher Brigade EQ2 - Unrest Tarryn of Dale, Hunter -- Dies Irae LotRO - Meneldor |
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vizco |
#9 | |||
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Odds of ".01%" means that one out of every ten thousand planets (or maybe "Earthlike" planets) should have intelligent life. There are
around 100 billion stars in our galaxy, and the more we look, the more we find planets circling them.
Just in this one galaxy those odds could yield millions of planets with intelligent life. There are around 50 billion galaxies in the universe. ![]() Harmony of Souls : My Quiver All this science I don't understand; it's just my job five days a week. |
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Soygen |
#10 | |||
fatesdefiance wrote:
I'm not givin' you attitude. I just want another drink.
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Feydakin Rainsong |
#11 | |||
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The hilarious thing about Soy's article is how long it is, and how many people the author felt compelled to include in order to overshadow the dumb hick
waving his arms and shouting, "It was me! I did it! It was just a big joke! No aliens over here..." Was it really necessary at that point for the Air
Force to deny any involvement? Like the Air Force is "involved" with some redneck tying road flares to helium balloons? Or some astronomer saying
"I believe in aliens, but why haven't they abducted me yet? I like getting anal probes!"
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Zifnab |
#12 | |||
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Looks like we doged a bullet here 70,000 years ago when the human population was reduced to around 2,000 people...
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/TECH/04/24/close.call.ap/index.html?imw=Y&iref=mpstoryemail |
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Ididar Tzan |
#13 | |||
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Yeah, read that the other day. Weird what they can theorize on with DNA these days.
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vizco |
#14 | |||
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My understanding of the meaning of these mitochondrial DNA studies is that they don't really say there were only 2000 humans 70,000 years ago. Don't
they mean instead that everyone is a descendant of 2000 women who lived 70,000 years ago? It's not quite the same thing. If at any point a woman's
descendants are all male, that branch of mtDNA inheritance is wiped out.
So, for example, my mother's mtDNA is safe, because she had a daughter (as well as two sons), and that daughter (my sister) had daughters as well. On the other hand, my wife's grandmother had nothing but sons, so she didn't pass on her mtDNA to anyone who could pass it on further. 70,000 years from now, she might not be counted as existing today because they would find any mtDNA from her. I trust I make myself unclear. :) Anyway, I'd like to read a more scholarly article about this; CNN is not exactly "Science" or even Newsweek. ![]() Harmony of Souls : My Quiver All this science I don't understand; it's just my job five days a week. |
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Snaille |
#15 | |||
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Throughout the universe, there are probably billions of intelligent life forms squinting at similar articles and posting on web forums. Some are probably close
enough to each other that they've made some type of radio contact.
Sucks being stuck out in the ass end of space with no neighbors, with a sun that's such a dim bulb that we probably can't be found even if someone else is looking. |
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Galidin |
#16 | |||
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Idiotic article.
BILLIONS of stars in BILLIONS of galaxies and we are the ONLY ones? You realize a 1 in one BILLION chance of developing life on a planet in a star system with planets and let's say 1 out of every 1000 systems has a habital planet thats 1,000,000 planets with life on them at the least. Galidin ![]() |
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Ididar Tzan |
#17 | |||
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Well, by his measure it would be 1,000,000 planets _capable_ of supporting life. Of that 1,000,000 planets only 10,000 would actually have intelligent life
arise during the time period a planet would be habitable. Given the size of the universe, assuming we use that rather inaccurate math .... it would be no
wonder we didn't actually run into each other.
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Snaille |
#18 | |||
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Any Earth-centric model of life is going to automatically assume the biases of such, most of these biases cannot be applied to non like systems in the
universe. In reality, we have a very small sampling of the environment necessary to give rise to life and life forms capable of intelligence. We are a sampling
of what, one out of billions and billions? I think Earth is just one successful case study amongst the billions and billions out there and all the variations
of such.
The universe's cheeks are probably bulging with intelligent life. Earth and human life, not so much. Just a small sample, we are. :) |
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vizco |
#19 | |||
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Pretty good post on the topic on Charles Stross's blog, with some excellent links: The Fermi Paradox Revisited
![]() Harmony of Souls : My Quiver All this science I don't understand; it's just my job five days a week. |
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