http://www.wesh.com/news/15298911/detail.html
It never occured to me that they'd keep a gun up there. learn something new everyday :)
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ellocopato |
If aliens attack the space station |
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you can shoot em:
http://www.wesh.com/news/15298911/detail.html It never occured to me that they'd keep a gun up there. learn something new everyday :)
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Blackedward |
#1 | |||
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Pretty hard to use effectively in zero-gee.
It would be a pretty cool propulsion system though...
-Ed |
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Feydakin Rainsong |
#2 | |||
Pretty hard to use effectively in zero-gee. Why? Please tell me you aren't thinking that the bullet would remain suspended in place while the person firing the gun would go hurtling off in the opposite direction. |
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creac |
#3 | |||
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It's a piece of survival equipment - makes sense.
Farwarden Creac Peregrinate
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Ididar Tzan |
#4 | |||
Feydakin Rainsong wrote: Haha. That would be so cool, though! |
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Ersiusp |
#5 | |||
Feydakin Rainsong wrote: But wouldn't both go off in opposite directions? Obviously, the person shooting won't go as fast due to much greater mass, but there would still
be motion.
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ellocopato |
#6 | |||
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would be like bullet time in the matrix
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Feydakin Rainsong |
#7 | |||
But wouldn't both go off in opposite directions? Obviously, the person shooting won't go as fast due to much greater mass, but there would still be motion. m1 * v1 = m2 * v2 The mass (m1) of the bullet is a fraction of a percent of the mass (m2) of the astronaut. So let's say (generously) that a 9mm slug weighs about 10 grams. A 200 pound astronaut is equivalent to about 90,000 grams. That means that the resulting velocity (v2) of the astronaut would be 1/9000th of the velocity of the slug, or in other words, if that 9mm bullet travels about 1500 ft/s, the astronaut would be knocked back at about 1500/9000 = 0.16666667 ft/s. It would take 12 seconds for the recoil to move the astronaut one foot. Hardly something that would create great difficulty for the shooter. Besides all of that, the station is pretty close quarters, it would be easy for the shooter to brace himself against a solid surface to prevent any kind of recoil effects. Incidentally, that would be the same reaction as on Earth. Being in zero-G has nothing to do with the simple physics of the situation. |
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Hordain Prima |
#8 | |||
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That'd hold true if the astronaut threw the bullet thereby giving you the simple reaction mass equation you threw up there. You haven't accounted for
the propellant component of the equation as well....
/edit - a 9mm Parabellum cartridge typically has a standard pressure "ceiling" of anywhere from 35,000 to 42,000 (NATO) psi - that's thrust right there and it'd need to be added to your equation for it to be wholly correct. With that added there's no doubt you'd get roughly shoved in the opposite direction since the propellant gas is expelled forward. You might even get a little lateral or spin motion depending on how the firearm vents the gas to cycle the ejector port and strip the next round off the clip.
Last Edited By: Hordain Prima 02-15-08 11:27 AM.
Edited 1 time.
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Feydakin Rainsong |
#9 | |||
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Since it's the propellant that causes the bullet to be propelled, it's similarly responsible for the reaction of the astronaut. The propellant pushes
both the bullet and the astronaut with equal force. Force equals mass times velocity, so the equation still reduces to the simple conservation of momentum
equation I showed above.
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Hordain Prima |
#10 | |||
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But the gas expelled is a mass reaction - you've lost that mass. If it didn't work, why do chemical jets work? The propellant in a cartridge is just as
efficient as solid rocket fuel and pretty damn close to the same general chemical reaction...
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Hordain Prima |
#11 | |||
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More: Conservation of Momentum only works in a closed system. Once the propellant is expelled from
the firearm, the system is no longer closed and then acts upon its environment.
I thought better of that. NM.
Last Edited By: Hordain Prima 02-15-08 11:42 AM.
Edited 1 time.
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Ididar Tzan |
#12 | |||
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Propellant expends most of its energy accelerating the mass of the bullet. If there was a bucketload of leftover thrust to be had from the propellant we'd
be designing better guns to take advantage of that leftover energy.
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Feydakin Rainsong |
#13 | |||
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I realized a slight error in what I said above, but I don't think it has a significant effect on the outcome... Force = mass * acceleration, not
Force = mass * velocity. Basically, if you expand the expressions and consider the reactions to be happening over the same period of time "t" (which
would, for all practical purposes be the time from the ignition of the powder until the slug exits the barrel of the gun... a fairly short time), you get:
F1 = F2 (from Newton's Third Law - every action has an equal and opposite reaction) F1 = m1 * a1 = m1 * v1/t (Newton's Second Law - F=m*a) F2 = m2 * a2 = m2 * v2/t (Newton's Second Law - F=m*a) m1 * v1/t = m2 * v2/t Multiply both sides by t, and you get m1 * v1 = m2 * v2. This is actually the Aristotelian model, which is a subset or gross simplification of Newtonian physics that works, but only because it discounts many other forces like friction. Propellant expends most of its energy accelerating the mass of the bullet. To be fair, the propellant expanding is also accelerating the mass of the astronaut... it's part of the conservation of energy. However, as I said, the disparity between the masses of the bullet and the astronaut tends to mean that the bullet will be accelerated to pretty much the same speed as it would have in Earth's gravity - the reaction seen as recoil would not be dramatic. Certainly the astronaut wouldn't go hurtling backwards or anything. To quibble on the subject of the mass of the gas (just for the sake of discussion, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse), let's say it's factored into the weight of the bullet (a typical 9mm slug itself weighs a bit less than 10g, more like 7-8g, and I rounded it up to 10 to make the numbers easy for purposes of illustration). The mass of gas used to expel the slug is not really significant (just the tiny amount sealed inside the bullet casing, which wouldn't be measured in grams)... I think what you're confusing in there is the energy being added by the chemical reaction. That reaction (ignition of the powder) takes a still relatively small amount of gas and gives it quite a bit of energy... but it's still a very, very small contribution to the impulse acting on the astronaut, even if you consider the gas to be moving faster than the slug, or were looking at just the gas ejected from the barrel without a slug... the much smaller mass of gases, even moving at much higher speeds than 1500fps, imparts less force by itself than the force imparted by the bullet speeding down the barrel, pushing back on the expanding gas, which then pushes back against the chamber of the gun and so transfers the energy to the astronaut. |
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Blackedward |
#14 | |||
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Not all propellant is burned in the barrel. Some will detonate as it leaves the barrel. Not sure if that has any affect here.
Would the reaction on the astronaut be greater if the weapon was not semi/select fire? Meaning no moving slide, etc. How about a select fire weapon? Or a larger calibre? Ultimately my original point was that it may be affective once. But follow-up shots may be more difficult to place accurately unless the shooter is anchored. FUN Stuff! -Ed |
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Ididar Tzan |
#15 | |||
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Well, generally yes follow up shots would be near impossible to place accurately. The more you fire the more you're going to move and, for the most part,
you'll be in a spin right from the get go, albeit a slow one. Since the gun is unlikely to be fired directly in line with your center of mass you'll
start turning and every concecutive shot will have to be adjusted to compensate for the spin.
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Feydakin Rainsong |
#16 | |||
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I suppose it would be a fair concern in free space, but as I mentioned earlier, the Space Station is actually pretty cramped quarters. It would be hard to
imagine how the shooter might find himself in a position where it wouldn't be feasible to brace or anchor himself.
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Ididar Tzan |
#17 | |||
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Yeah ... but its ALIENS ... so we'll have to do a spacewalk and put the gun in the spare spacesuit and shoot the small port on their spaceship that'll
somehow blow the whole thing up and save the human race!
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Zifnab |
#18 | |||
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The reason you have a gun is in case another astronaut goes ape shit and you have to put him down before he puts you and the rest of the crew down.
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Feydakin Rainsong |
#19 | |||
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If that were the case, then wouldn't a tranquilizer gun or just a tazer be more sensible? Higher chance of subduing the apeshit astronaut without killing
him (and then he can be restrained) or without risk of putting holes in the station itself. To quote a fictional Russian submarine captain.... "things in
here don't react well to bullets."
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Physic FormerlyHasRez |
#20 | |||
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>The reason you have a gun is in case another astronaut goes ape shit
i figured it was on the russian capsule because they land ... on land. if the capsule went off course and into the rugged russian wilderness you might need the firearm as a survival tool. |
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Hordain Prima |
#21 | |||
Physic FormerlyHasRez wrote:
You're all wrong. It's to defend against the senseless Chinese Space Expansionist Aggressions brought on by the severe lack of Females:
Now the real question everyone needs to ask themselves is this: Do Chinese Space Pirates say "Arrrrr" or ......?
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Physic FormerlyHasRez |
#22 | |||
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>Do Chinese Space Pirates say "Arrrrr" or ......?
wouldn't they say Allllll ? |
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zeist prexus |
#23 | |||
How about a select fire weapon? Or a larger calibre?The Russian military Almaz space stations had a 23mm cannon mounted on them. And the engines would automatically fire to offset recoil. I guess it's not quite the same thing though, because even if only a tiny force was imparted it could cause problems over time since your orbit wouldn't be bounded by the walls of a space station/capsule. |
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Blackedward |
#24 | |||
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Cooooool!
-Ed |
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Galidin |
#25 | |||
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If they are going to go nuts they could just open an airlock and within minutes everyone would be dead...
OMG if their is a gun a nut could kill everyone omg!!! A bunch of Islamic extremists using box cutters caused 9-11 let's be honest, is the GUN the problem on the space station or the fact that if someone goes nuts your basically got /random 1 101 chance of surviving depending on HOW and WHERE the person goes nuts. Galidin ![]() |
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