They prohibit private health, yep. If you allowed private hospitals to form then the public sector would suffer from more shortages than Ontario is already
complaining about. Alberta has been attempting for years to push through provincial legislation to allow it but the federal legislation trumps it so they can
pass all the laws they want, the federal laws trump. The only people I've met or talked to in Canada who're keen on private health care are folks
who're fairly well off or simply utterly naive of the US health situation. There are benefits and drawbacks to both systems but this is why its generally
the politicians representing more wealthy individuals that are the ones pushing privatization. And its not the "really wealthy" folks, but say the
people in the upper middle class who have regular 9/5 jobs but are making very good salaries so they can't just jet off to another city to get their
desired "premium" health care like the millionaires and above can afford to do. Although, the same folks, back when they were starting out,
didn't really talk much about privatization. Most people I've talked to, in Ontario and in my own province (spent 5 years in Ontario), are generally
happy with the public system. Its a minority in the country that push for privatization.
The official Prexus message board that won't sell out.
0 Kudo
Designer Of Canadian Socialist Healthcare System Expresses Regrets
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 Ididar Tzan |
#41 | ||||
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Posts: 2673 07-03-08 10:39 AM |
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Sepa |
#42 | ||||
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Posts: 904 07-03-08 2:40 PM While I was breastfeeding |
This is what kills me about this debate...
You want to give all of the money spent on health care to the same group of people that run the FDA, USDA and VA? Are you kidding me? All three of those organizations are corrupted beyond measure. Charged with the well being of so many people they make bad decisions, bad policy and horribly misleading claims which lead to sickness, disease and bad health for millions of Americans. Its bad enough that people listen to those organizations... now we have to pay for their bad health? I'll pass. I'll pass on paying for lung cancer treatments for smokers and rehab for drunks. As an active duty dependent I'm a TriCare Prime patient. I hate to break it to you but TriCare is designed to work like a private HMO. Even though its non-profit they use the HMO model to keep costs in line. Most of TriCare's leadership are civilian HMO executives. The only thing that is great about TriCare is that there is NO cost to Active Duty and dependents. For the rest its pretty average. 
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 Gandol teh Pirate |
#43 | ||||
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Posts: 2576 07-03-08 3:27 PM Time-traveling
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For the rest, [TriCare] is pretty average.Except where cost growth is concerned. In that regard, they are far and away better than the industry average.
Zarr's contextualized position on slavery:
For a humorous example, I sold myself as a slave at a charity auction once. I ended up spending the day chopping wood at a farm. It's slavery, but it's far from immoral. |
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ellocopato |
#44 | ||||
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Posts: 3908 07-03-08 4:34 PM
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Sepa wrote:what about the obese? heck I've seen many dependents of military personnel that qualify and require alot of medical care.
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Borofin |
#45 | ||||
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Posts: 3774 07-03-08 4:39 PM Community Member |
Sepa, it's not about making a better system, it's about remaking America into a socialist state.
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Sepa |
#46 | ||||
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Posts: 904 07-03-08 5:31 PM While I was breastfeeding |
Sepa, it's not about making a better system, it's about remaking America into a socialist state.Except... like usual... you are bat shit crazy and its NOT about remaking America into a socialist state.
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Sepa |
#47 | ||||
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Posts: 904 07-03-08 5:33 PM While I was breastfeeding |
what about the obese? heck I've seen many dependents of military personnel that qualify and require alot of medical care.I agree! But TriCare is a benefit of the job. Military personnel have most certainly contributed and their health care is to be consider part of the compensation.
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Shrieek |
#48 | ||||
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Posts: 708 07-03-08 5:42 PM |
Ididar Tzan wrote: Last I checked, Ontario is in Canada and that makes us Canadians. Stop assuming. My family is spread across the whole country. I don't think Ontario is the only province in Canada. I just hate how I can't get a
family doctor unless I do retarded things like live in a localized area for more than a year. I"m a contractor.
It also doesn't matter WHO we elect. OHIP isn't gonna change. The bottom line is we need more Doctors in Ontario. I'd pay insurance out of pocket it it meant I could actually get a doctor when I needed one. Unfortunately I have to wait in line with the Hypochondriacs and get revolved out in a matter of minutes without a say in the matter. You can argue it all you want. The bottom line is, folks like me pay enormous taxes and haven't a hope in hell of getting a family doctor.
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ellocopato |
#49 | ||||
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Posts: 3908 07-03-08 6:13 PM
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Sepa wrote: ah I misread then. I thought you had an issue with the military peeps who drank and smoked
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Borofin |
#50 | ||||
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Posts: 3774 07-03-08 7:38 PM Community Member |
Shrieek, stop stating facts you are interferring with the narrative and more nuanced positions as to why we should all embrace socialism for the greater good.
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Gandol teh Pirate |
#51 | ||||
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Posts: 2576 07-03-08 7:51 PM Time-traveling
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Would there be more doctors in Ontario if the medical system were different? I'm not sure I understand how socialized medicine keeps doctors out of
Ontario.
Zarr's contextualized position on slavery:
For a humorous example, I sold myself as a slave at a charity auction once. I ended up spending the day chopping wood at a farm. It's slavery, but it's far from immoral. |
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Morkenlar |
#52 | ||||
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Posts: 1976 07-03-08 9:28 PM |
Would there be more doctors in Ontario if the medical system were different? I'm not sure I understand how socialized medicine keeps doctors out of Ontario.Are you serious? You don't understand that with a single payer system, they can set arbitrary prices that are below market value, thus decreasing the number of people going into the medical field?
Mork
"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul" |
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Borofin |
#53 | ||||
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Posts: 3774 07-03-08 10:49 PM Community Member |
But, But Mork, every one should work for the betterment of their fellow man, not themselves! Of course these greedy doctor bastards should be working for
peanuts! How dare they! We may have to start enforcing laws that make sure they treat a certain number of patients and breeakdowns within that a certain number
from specific groups, or we will start jailing the doctors. That will teach them!
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Ganders |
#54 | ||||
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Posts: 2433 07-04-08 4:30 AM |
You don't understand that with a single payer system, they can set arbitrary prices that are below market value, thus decreasing the number of people going into the medical field? Which is only an issue when a country does something truly stupid like prohibit private health care - something I never realised was the case in Canada. The problem there isn't nationalised health - it's prohibiting private health. I don't see why healthcare is different from, say, education. You have public provision, and if you don't like it you can pay to go private. If you can't afford private, then at least there's some sort of cover provided for you. Now that seems to be acceptable in the US for education, so why not health?
I support indoctrination in the schools starting at kindergarten promoting homosexual parity and normality, environmental
catastrophism, white guilt, and American unexceptionalism
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fatesdefiance |
#55 | ||||
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Posts: 3247 07-04-08 4:55 AM Community Member |
Ganders wrote: Everyone needs a basic level of education to function in the modern world. Not everyone needs health care, and those who do need it vary wildly in the amount they need. It's apples and oranges.
Hunter Tarryn Valewalker -- Twisted Fates
(Prexus - Retired) Nightshade Tarryn Valewalker -- Kingfisher Brigade EQ2 - Unrest Tarryn of Dale, Hunter -- Dies Irae LotRO - Meneldor |
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Ididar Tzan |
#56 | ||||
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Posts: 2673 07-04-08 7:08 AM |
Shrieek wrote: And, as I said, health care is run by province, not by the federal government. The problems that exist in Ontario are not the same problems that exist in
Alberta, Manitoba, Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, etc. But, you wanted to paint the entire country on Ontario's problems. OHIP can change if you elect the
right people. Problem is that Ontario has been fucking itself up for years. As long as manufacturing was going strong Ontario was the crown jewel of Canada but
now that resources have eclipsed manufacturing as the strength of the economy Ontario has been sinking slowly. Now they're whining about how poorly they
have it. Cry me a river. I work closely with a contractor out of Ontario and by all measures he's a very wealthy guy. He could retire today and live
extremely well. Hates the way Ontario has been going because the public won't elect anyone to fix any of the prroblems. But, despite that, my sister and
her boyfriend moved to the Toronto area 6-8 months ago. Got a family doctor no problem. You move around an excessive amount? Well, too bad. You're the
small minority that the system doesn't work as well for.
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Ididar Tzan |
#57 | ||||
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Posts: 2673 07-04-08 7:29 AM |
Sepa wrote:Except that this "debate" is about the Canadian system, not some mythical American system, and the Canadian system is run by the province, not the federal government, so comparing it to federal organizations is rather silly. The Canadian systems change depending on the needs of your province and there is actual competition between provinces for doctors. Costs being charged vary from province to province such that the provinces compete for doctors. So, if your province is suffering a shortage of doctors its because another province is paying better and hence convincing doctors to go work there. There is no national "pay scale" to "keep the doctors down". To give you an idea, don't think because its a public health care system doctors are poor bastards unable to afford the necessities of life. In 2005 there were 1,450 doctors in Ontario that earned more than $466,000 a year. Nearly 1,000 of them earned more than $627,000 (224 of those were family doctors). Hardly a crippling state of affairs for doctors in Canada. Emergency room doctors in Ontario were making $170 an hour on average in 2006. Now, there have also been articles decrying the fact that some family doctors (after expenses) are making the same as auto plant workers. Yeah. Dig into those numbers and you find out they're comparing an auto-plant worker putting in 20 hours of overtime a week, plus some weekends and still coming shy of doctors by $20,000-$30,000 a year when the doctor is putting in only 40 hours a week. But, its like anything. If you're willing to work bucketloads of overtime you can make a lot of money and since (family) doctors get paid per patient seen in Canada the more they work, the more money they make, just like that auto worker. Comparing slacker doctors to gut-busting auto workers is hardly a fair comparison. I'd expect a guy who busts his ass to make more money for his family to do well. But, no, I still don't expect him to make more than the doctor who's working the same hours because the doctor went to school for 9 fucking years to get to where he is. |
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vizco |
#58 | ||||
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Posts: 3268 07-04-08 10:28 AM Raid Peon |
I would guess that if Ontario sets low provincial payscales, its because people would rather live in Ontario than in West Hoser, Sask. That gives the Ontario
government the ability to discount pay because the job comes with the "living in Ontario" bonus, and since there's no competition in Ontario to
pay them more, it's "take the low pay and get to live in Toronto, eh?"
If the doctors are unhappy, and the patients are unhappy, the provider doesn't care, because they aren't affected. Why is anyone surprised a monopoly is wielding its power?  Harmony of Souls : My Quiver All this science I don't understand; it's just my job five days a week. |
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Ididar Tzan |
#59 | ||||
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Posts: 2673 07-04-08 10:41 AM |
Its the same balance that exists in private industry. People have to pay, proportionally, more to get people to go to more remote locations. This is not a case
of a monopoly wielding any power, its a case of supply vs demand vs living conditions. They could as easily move to Vancouver, Victoria, Edmonton, Calgary,
Montreal, and so forth and have the same or better living conditions. And you still have remote locations in Ontario that I'm sure they're struggling
to get doctors to go to. Under a private system you would never have a doctor there, at all, because the locals would never be able to afford to pay them to go
there. So, yeah, I'll take our system despite its flaws.
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Shrieek |
#60 | ||||
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Posts: 708 07-07-08 7:54 PM |
Ididar Tzan wrote: In the last assessment - 4million Canadians do not have a family doctor. That's 10% of the population of all whom pay into the plan. As for health care being provincial - yes it is. But it's the federal government that ensures no privatized healthcare is available. As for the quality of Doctors - we probably have some of the best. However they get paid per VISIT. Meaning each time someone swipes their OHIP card the doctor gets paid. There's less motivation to hold a patient and find out what is REALLY wrong with them; rather than pushing them out with Allergy meds for someone who has something much more serious. Seriously, you can argue all day how you are lucky and have a family doc - thereby making the assumption that ANYONE can get one just as easily. Afraid it
isn't so. I still pay ridiculous tax on a service I can't use without losing days of work, rather than making an APPOINTMENT for a half hour and
getting on with life. The system is fucked.
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