Uncontacted Indian tribe photographed.

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Cafu07

Uncontacted Indian tribe photographed.

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05-30-08 3:39 PM

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Most of you have probably seen this story by now. Here is a page with three pictures: http://www.survival-international.org/

I have heard talk about how these people need to be protected and to a certain extent I agree. If they choose to stay on their land and stick with their current way of life, then that land should be protected. But these are human beings and I don't think they should be kept in ignorance like they are animals in a nature preserve. Don't they have the right to know that there are other options so they can make their own decision? If you were in their position, wouldn't you want to know about the outside world?

Another issue I wonder about is the extent to which indigenous people have the right to continue a way of life that might conflict with the laws of the nation in which they unknowingly live. We don't know anything about these people so this all just speculation, but what if they practice cannibalism? What if they make human sacrifices? What if they rape children? Doesn't Brazil have a right, even a duty, to step in and prevent behavior that violates their laws? Again, this is just speculation for the sake of discussion. For all we know they are peaceful hunter/gatherers with no customs or practices that would violate serious laws.

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Afmo

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05-30-08 4:37 PM

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these people have obviously been getting along just fine for a LONG time. leave them alone. They have their own ways, they aren't bothering anyone. I don't think that they are "like animals" if we leave them alone. In all reality they probably wouldn't be able to comprehend the outside world. Major contact would probably destroy their entire way of life, leaving them worse off than before.

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Zifnab

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05-30-08 4:52 PM

From what I've read they know there are options. They think this particular tribe was an offshoot of another that moved deeper in the jungle to avoid encroachment by farmers in the 1950's.

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Cafu07

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05-30-08 7:25 PM

Zifnab wrote:
From what I've read they know there are options. They think this particular tribe was an offshoot of another that moved deeper in the jungle to avoid encroachment by farmers in the 1950's.

They are calling them "uncontacted." Whether or not that's true in this specific case, let's assume for sake of discussion that these people had never seen someone from outside their world until that plane flew over and took pictures of them.

Afmo wrote:
these people have obviously been getting along just fine for a LONG time. leave them alone. They have their own ways, they aren't bothering anyone. I don't think that they are "like animals" if we leave them alone. In all reality they probably wouldn't be able to comprehend the outside world. Major contact would probably destroy their entire way of life, leaving them worse off than before.

You are assuming they want to be left alone. Maybe you are right and contact with the outside world would destroy their way of life, but who gets to make that decision? I bet that if contact was made and they were offered electric lighters and shown how to use them that they would be happy to accept them. If we were to offer a mother a cure for the disease that is killing her child I think she's going to be happy to have it. Who are we to say "No, you can't have access to the many wonders and conveniences of the modern world because they aren't good for you." That sounds like we are playing God. "No, you can't have access to modern hygiene and medicine because we feel you are noble savages and should not be corrupted." We are protecting their primitive way of life without consulting them about it. I think the analogy of keeping animals in a nature preserve is extremely accurate.

I understand the caution because of what has happened in the past. I am not saying we should destroy their land, force them to convert to Christianity and then pack them up and put them on reservations. I am just saying that as human beings they deserve the right to know the truth as best we can explain it and then be allowed to make their own decision.

Last Edited By: Cafu07 05-30-08 7:42 PM. Edited 3 times.

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fatesdefiance

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05-30-08 7:56 PM

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I agree, Cafu. I don't think the Prime Directive applies here...these are humans, and they should have the benefit of a thoroughly informed choice regarding how they wish to live their lives. It's not fair to them to deny them the benefits of modern human existence by leaving them in ignorance.

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Afmo

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05-30-08 8:12 PM

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Cafu07 wrote:

Zifnab wrote:
From what I've read they know there are options. They think this particular tribe was an offshoot of another that moved deeper in the jungle to avoid encroachment by farmers in the 1950's.

They are calling them "uncontacted." Whether or not that's true in this specific case, let's assume for sake of discussion that these people had never seen someone from outside their world until that plane flew over and took pictures of them.

Afmo wrote:
these people have obviously been getting along just fine for a LONG time. leave them alone. They have their own ways, they aren't bothering anyone. I don't think that they are "like animals" if we leave them alone. In all reality they probably wouldn't be able to comprehend the outside world. Major contact would probably destroy their entire way of life, leaving them worse off than before.

You are assuming they want to be left alone. Maybe you are right and contact with the outside world would destroy their way of life, but who gets to make that decision? I bet that if contact was made and they were offered electric lighters and shown how to use them that they would be happy to accept them. If we were to offer a mother a cure for the disease that is killing her child I think she's going to be happy to have it. Who are we to say "No, you can't have access to the many wonders and conveniences of the modern world because they aren't good for you." That sounds like we are playing God. "No, you can't have access to modern hygiene and medicine because we feel you are noble savages and should not be corrupted." We are protecting their primitive way of life without consulting them about it. I think the analogy of keeping animals in a nature preserve is extremely accurate.

I understand the caution because of what has happened in the past. I am not saying we should destroy their land, force them to convert to Christianity and then pack them up and put them on reservations. I am just saying that as human beings they deserve the right to know the truth as best we can explain it and then be allowed to make their own decision.

i understand what your saying. And part of me agrees with you. I dunno. I do assume they wan't to be left alone because they haven't made any attempt to contact the outside world. I dunno. its not often that you find a group of people living in the stone age...its difficult to decide how to go about it. My oppinion is to leave them alone, let them continue their way of life.

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Falkahnhan

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05-30-08 8:52 PM

It's not fair to them to deny them the benefits of modern human existence by leaving them in ignorance.

Why not? It's not like contact with the modern world will the benefits of modern medicine, education, etc will miraculously appear in this village. I don't think you need to look much further than some parts of Africa to see that the "benefits of modern human existence" aren't likely to reach a remote location like this village.

I was talking about this with my wife and she raised a good point: Much like the Native Americans these people probably don't have the antibodies to ward off modern disease. Given how we've seen disease decimate native populations my wife and I thought that modern society should be wary to contact isolated tribes.

- Joe

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fatesdefiance

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05-30-08 8:59 PM

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The point is that they should have the opportunity to make an informed choice about whether to seek a modern existence. Leaving them (literally) in the dark about the opportunities available outside their little corner of the world is simply wrong.

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Afmo

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05-30-08 9:16 PM

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fatesdefiance wrote:
The point is that they should have the opportunity to make an informed choice about whether to seek a modern existence. Leaving them (literally) in the dark about the opportunities available outside their little corner of the world is simply wrong.

they do have the opportunity. All they have to do is explore out of their area and into a civilized area. Storming into their world is likely to destroy it. That is simply wrong. I think the problem is that these people don't have the context to understand modern life.

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fatesdefiance

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05-30-08 10:03 PM

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Afmo wrote:
they do have the opportunity. All they have to do is explore out of their area and into a civilized area. Storming into their world is likely to destroy it. That is simply wrong. I think the problem is that these people don't have the context to understand modern life.

Explore out of their area? What's the range of a human on foot in that kind of terrain? Also, given such a primitive existence, it's entirely possible that too much effort must be devoted to simply feeding themselves every day to allow for extensive field trips.

Now, if they were made aware of the kind of existence that is available in the modern world, then they could make an informed choice whether to seek that out.

I don't think it's necessary to "storm" into their world. Some low-key contacts would be sufficient, once communication barriers were overcome.

I don't see any reason to preserve "virtuous ignorance". I think attempting to do so amounts to hubris.

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Afmo

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05-30-08 11:16 PM

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could they really make an informed choice though? I don't think they could. I don't think they could comprehend the outside world. I took a religion class a while back, and i can't find the info, so you'll have to take this with a grain of salt, but we learned about this aboriginal tribe who was uncontacted like this one, and those that contacted them introduced mint toothpaste into their culture and tried to show them how to use it to brush their teeth. They didn't know how to interpret the toothpaste so they smeared it on their bodies because the mint tingled. They took it as a religious sign. I suspect that a similar thing would happen here. also it appears that in one of those pictures they are firing arrows at the helicopter. That says to me they take the outside world as a threat, and again, unable to understand the outside world...

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fatesdefiance

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05-30-08 11:48 PM

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Unless their intellect is fundamentally under-developed, I don't see why they couldn't learn to understand the outside world. I think that's an opportunity that they should be offered.

I don't see why the so-called "uncontacted" peoples must be consigned to life as an ant farm. They are our fellow humans--if they choose to reject the modern world, that's fine, but I think we're obligated to reveal to them that there is an alternative to what they're living.

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Falkahnhan

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05-31-08 12:08 AM

I don't see why the so-called "uncontacted" peoples must be consigned to life as an ant farm. They are our fellow humans--if they choose to reject the modern world, that's fine, but I think we're obligated to reveal to them that there is an alternative to what they're living.

Just this one tribe or the 50 in Brazil and Peru or the 100 world wide?

Still, you haven't addressed the issue of disease and the possibility of destroying the tribe by exposing them to modern sickness.

- Joe

I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which grants a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
- James Madison

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Ididar Tzan

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05-31-08 8:15 AM

You can't expect them to make an informed decision about moving into the modern age. I'm not saying they're dumb ... I'm saying you couldn't possibly explain all the implications and ramifications to these people in terms they could relate to their current existence. You'd be making the decision for them, pure and simple. You want to bring these people into the modern age you're going to make the decision for them and then youre going to send a team of anthropologists and linguists in there to slowly bring these people up to speed on the modern age. It'll likely take a decade or more and I doubt the current generation would go for it. You'll probably be simply introducing a conlict where their young would be attracted to the outside world and want to leave while the elders of the community would see their way of life destroyed by the contact. Young people leave, village can no longer support itself, remaining people likely die off and the village is wiped out, even if half of them choose to stay.

The very act of stepping in and trying to offer a choice would irreparably change their way of life.

I'm not saying we do nothing. I'm saying that there is no "choice" for them. The government of Brazil will end up making the choice for them, for good or bad.

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Feydakin Rainsong

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05-31-08 9:03 AM

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They look cold. We should probably send them some blankets.

"Our great war is a spiritual war. Our great depression.... is our lives."

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Skeptic

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05-31-08 11:20 AM

Feyd, I see what you did there, but seriously, that "give them some blankets" issue should be put to rest. No one ever took a blanket out of the infirmary storage closet and handed it to an Amerind thinking he and his people would get smallpox from it. The people who started that crap were liars, but the myth has taken hold because Americans are so poorly educated.

--Diane

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Cafu07

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05-31-08 11:27 AM

Falkahnhan wrote:

It's not fair to them to deny them the benefits of modern human existence by leaving them in ignorance.
Why not? It's not like contact with the modern world will the benefits of modern medicine, education, etc will miraculously appear in this village. I don't think you need to look much further than some parts of Africa to see that the "benefits of modern human existence" aren't likely to reach a remote location like this village.

I was talking about this with my wife and she raised a good point: Much like the Native Americans these people probably don't have the antibodies to ward off modern disease. Given how we've seen disease decimate native populations my wife and I thought that modern society should be wary to contact isolated tribes.

Those are both very good points. Introducing them to modern society might just mean surplus Patriots 2008 Superbowl Champion t-shirts and disease.

But if the decision was made to make contact, I would suggest trying to convince a couple of them to leave the village and come into society for a year or two and then let those people return to their tribe, describe what they experienced, and let them make their own decision. This would seem like a way to make them aware of their options without completely corrupting their way of life. Of course this may be practically impossible unless we have some way to communicate with them.

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Ersiusp

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05-31-08 12:30 PM

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We allow people like the Amish to live backward lives and view them as quaint but generally leave them alone. This is only a more extreme example of the same mindset. These people are an anthropological treasure, and should be left isolated as long as possible.

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Cafu07

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05-31-08 12:33 PM

Ersiusp wrote:
We allow people like the Amish to live backward lives and view them as quaint but generally leave them alone. This is only a more extreme example of the same mindset. These people are an anthropological treasure, and should be left isolated as long as possible.

That analogy really has nothing to do with what we are talking about. The Amish people have made a choice to live like they do. Uncontacted tribes haven't been presented with options.

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Kayso Gnomehater

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05-31-08 2:30 PM

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Cafu07 wrote:

Ersiusp wrote:
We allow people like the Amish to live backward lives and view them as quaint but generally leave them alone. This is only a more extreme example of the same mindset. These people are an anthropological treasure, and should be left isolated as long as possible.

That analogy really has nothing to do with what we are talking about. The Amish people have made a choice to live like they do. Uncontacted tribes haven't been presented with options.

What he said. Keep in mind, they're living in a pretty remote area of Brazil -- not some forest in upstate New York. It's not like letting them meet people with medicine and clothing is going to thrust them into sophisticated high society over night. I think it will be a while before MTV films a Real World season there.

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Curari

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05-31-08 4:54 PM

We allow people like the Amish to live backward lives and view them as quaint but generally leave them alone.

The Amish own their land as well.

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Zifnab

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05-31-08 5:24 PM

They look cold. We should probably send them some blankets.

Zing!

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Blackedward

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05-31-08 8:30 PM

They look cold. We should probably send them some blankets.

And whiskey!

-Ed

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0 Rezologist 0

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05-31-08 9:23 PM

these people have obviously been getting along just fine for a LONG time. leave them alone. They have their own ways, they aren't bothering anyone. I don't think that they are "like animals" if we leave them alone. In all reality they probably wouldn't be able to comprehend the outside world. Major contact would probably destroy their entire way of life, leaving them worse off than before.

Like the Jeffs compound in Texas.