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Eleazarr |
#226 | |||
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Your definition is the modern definition. I agree with it. Slavery as we know it is absolutely immoral. Your error is when you apply that definition to all
situations that you encounter in the bible. End of discussion.
"Imagination does not breed insanity. Exactly what does breed
insanity is reason. Poets do not go mad; but chess-players do. Mathematicians go mad; but creative artists very seldom. I am not attacking logic: I only say
that this danger does lie in logic, not in imagination."
-G.K. Chesterton |
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Gandol teh Pirate |
#227 | |||
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OT references to God instructing the Israelites to enslave gentiles from neighboring regions doesn't count as forcible slavery? References to the master
who understandably beats the slave for failing to have the house properly prepared doesn't count as forcible slavery?
Well, I'll be damned (not literally, of course).
Zarr's contextualized position on slavery:
For a humorous example, I sold myself as a slave at a charity auction once. I ended up spending the day chopping wood at a farm. It's slavery, but it's far from immoral. |
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Eleazarr |
#228 | |||
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I can see that we are back where we started. I'm satisfied.
"Imagination does not breed insanity. Exactly what does breed
insanity is reason. Poets do not go mad; but chess-players do. Mathematicians go mad; but creative artists very seldom. I am not attacking logic: I only say
that this danger does lie in logic, not in imagination."
-G.K. Chesterton |
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Gandol teh Pirate |
#229 | |||
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And where is that exactly? That you get to pick and choose debt-repayment options as apologetic definition of slavery and conveniently overlook the more
barbaric forms also documented in the same book? It makes me wonder why God cared enough about the Israelites to send Moses off to the rescue of the enslaved
in Egypt. Pharaoh was just giving those poor people a job because they couldn't find one on their own. It was the only moral thing to do!
How typical of you to want it both ways.
Zarr's contextualized position on slavery:
For a humorous example, I sold myself as a slave at a charity auction once. I ended up spending the day chopping wood at a farm. It's slavery, but it's far from immoral. |
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wardogadmin |
#230 | |||
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This thread reminds me of this quote from the Princess Bride...
Vizzini: He didn't fall? Inconceivable!
Snaggs
Retired Druid of Prexus What counts is not what sounds plausible, not what we would like to believe, not what one or two witnesses claim, but only what is supported by hard evidence rigorously and skeptically examined. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan |
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Gandol teh Pirate |
#231 | |||
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ROFL, perfect.
Zarr's contextualized position on slavery:
For a humorous example, I sold myself as a slave at a charity auction once. I ended up spending the day chopping wood at a farm. It's slavery, but it's far from immoral. |
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Ididar Tzan |
#232 | |||
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Zarr defines slavery so broadly it can apply to volunteer service as well as forced ownership of human beings. Others disagree with that definition, show their
definition, and call the practice immoral. Zarr then declares that people think his volunteer service is immoral. Why? Because Zarr can only interpret the
world through the definitions he uses. He can't put himself in anyone elses shoes so when other people show their definitions Zarr wipes those from his
mind and substitutes his own while responding.
This is a fairly common Zarr tactic. Only ever use his own definitions, even when discussing someone elses ideas. That way you can easily believe other people's positions are foolish because your ideas and theirs will never mesh and make sense. |
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Gandol teh Pirate |
#233 | |||
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Thank you for putting it so succinctly, Fdor. That simplified model allows the rest of the discussion to fall into place. Seeing as how Zarr is either
unwilling or unable to accept another person's perspective, I guess I'm done here.
For what it's worth, there's a term in clinical psychology that describes "a false belief, not generally shared by others in the culture." It's called a delusion. Zarr, any further defense of slavery as an occasionally moral solution will no longer elicit an angry or outraged reaction from me. Only pity will follow. Good luck man.
Zarr's contextualized position on slavery:
For a humorous example, I sold myself as a slave at a charity auction once. I ended up spending the day chopping wood at a farm. It's slavery, but it's far from immoral. |
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Phrustum ChubbyJerk |
#234 | |||
Because Zarr can only interpret the world through the definitions he uses. He can't put himself in anyone elses shoes so when other people show their definitions Zarr wipes those from his mind and substitutes his own while responding.Both sides have done that. Others disagree with that definition, show their definition, and call the practice immoral. Zarr then declares that people think his volunteer service is immoral.And on the flip side, Zarr said slavery is not immoral in and of itself and people substitute in their own definition of slavery and claim Zarr thinks it's cool to forcibly capture slaves and beat them. But sure, it's a "Zarr tactic."
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Ididar Tzan |
#235 | |||
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Phrus,
When someone brings up something like slavery you go with the definition of the person who initiated the conversation. People who come along after the fact don't get to re-define what slavery means and try to alter the conversation to suit their points. Zarr had plenty of choices to deal with the issue brought forth in the terminology available but he chose instead to make up his own terminology and use that to try and make a point. Or, heck, he could have simply said "yeah, the bible's use of the word slavery is sort of confusing" and left it at that instead of reaching with his broad definitions to try and justify everything to the nth degree. Then again, he does that a lot. Instead of saying a few words and admitting its not very clear he has to expound at length and dig himself into a very deep hole while doing so. |
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Phrustum ChubbyJerk |
#236 | |||
When someone brings up something like slavery you go with the definition of the person who initiated the conversation.So somebody brings up slavery in the Bible, and we're supposed to use that person's definition instead of the one in the context of the Bible? Sorry, but that's idiotic. Sure, Zarr could have been clearer. |
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Gandol teh Pirate |
#237 | |||
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Zarr has been perfectly clear. He equates 1 day of volunteerism as equal in name to the institution that allowed slave owners to screw the women they owned
(Biblical example) and tear families apart (US example).
Zarr's contextualized position on slavery:
For a humorous example, I sold myself as a slave at a charity auction once. I ended up spending the day chopping wood at a farm. It's slavery, but it's far from immoral. |
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Ididar Tzan |
#238 | |||
Phrustum ChubbyJerk wrote:Even if you disagree with the definition, and state that clearly, you still don't just ignore the original definition and take the arguement off in your own direction. Zarr never should have gone off in the direction of defending slavery based on his personal definition. He should have stuck to trying to explain how he felt the definition of slavery being used was restrictive, or wrong, or what have you. The second he strayed he opened himself up to a bucketload of criticism and that's what he got. If the arguement had simply gone off in the direction of the definition of slavery exclusively he wouldn't have dug himself a very deep hole. |
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Phrustum ChubbyJerk |
#239 | |||
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I'm not saying Zarr handled it well. I'm saying nobody did.
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Ididar Tzan |
#240 | |||
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Others, at the least, stuck to the original premise and didn't try to change the definitions to suit their arguement. If Zarr starts the discussion and
then someone else does the same thing ... I'll call them on it too. "Handling it well" is not the point to me ... its using lame debating tactics
like definition changing that usually gets me annoyed. Every debate needs a frame of reference. People who want to change the frame of reference to suit their
arguements are generally fighting from an automatically weak position.
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Phrustum ChubbyJerk |
#241 | |||
Others, at the least, stuck to the original premiseThe problem is, the original premise was flawed because it was using today's definition of slavery and applying it to everything in the Bible. and didn't try to change the definitions to suit their arguement.But that's essentially what they did, although, presumably, unintentionally. Again, see above. Every debate needs a frame of reference.And in this case, the frame of reference needed to be based on the context of the Bible, since that's what was being discussed. |
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Feydakin Rainsong |
#242 | |||
The problem is, the original premise was flawed because it was using today's definition of slavery and applying it to everything in the Bible. And Zarr, or someone else, is entitled to demonstrate why that particular definition does not apply to the passages in question... if he can. But that's essentially what they did, although, presumably, unintentionally. Again, see above. So picking a definition and sticking to it is "changing definitions to suit the argument? Then I contest that you've changed the defintion of "definition" because you're not using the same one the rest of us are. And in this case, the frame of reference needed to be based on the context of the Bible, since that's what was being discussed. And Zarr, or someone else, is entitled to demonstrate why that particular definition does not apply to the passages in question... if he can.
"Our great war is a spiritual war. Our great depression.... is our lives."
Have you met Tyler Durden? |
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Falkahnhan |
#243 | |||
And Zarr, or someone else, is entitled to demonstrate why that particular definition does not apply to the passages in question... if he can. Two writings that cover slavery from a Christian standpoint. Slavery and Christianity Ethical Aspect of Slavery
- Joe
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which grants a right to Congress of
expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
- James Madison |
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Phrustum ChubbyJerk |
#244 | |||
So picking a definition and sticking to it is "changing definitions to suit the argument?I'm not saying they changed the definition they used from the start, but they changed the definition of the word in the text. Maybe "changing the definition" is the wrong terminology...perhaps forcing their definition onto a text written when a different one was sometimes meant. I was was just trying to point out that they did something similar. (Thus, I said "essentially".) And Zarr, or someone else, is entitled to demonstrate why that particular definition does not apply to the passages in question... if he can.I've gone over all of this I'm about to say, so I'll try to be brief. 1) There's definitely "bad" stuff, stuff that's hard to reconcile, whatever, in the Bible, especially in the OT. So don't read this as me trying to wave (or waive?) everything away as a non-issue. 2) There's quite often no way (that I know of) to tell what is meant by "slave" in a particular passage. Sometimes, it clearly refers to debt elimination. Other times, it clearly refers to capturing people as slaves. Most often, I personally wouldn't know how to tell which it means. Due to 1 above, I don't think it's worthwhile to bother trying for the purposes of this argument. 3) Part of the problem initially was that Gandol just parroted a parody site, which was biased and didn't give any context or references for its info. I think to this point we've only had one actual Bible verse cited, and that was the parable. How hard is it to admit that both sides have used some poor debating tactics? I've admitted a mistake at least once in this thread. Come on people, you can do it.
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creac |
#245 | |||
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The word slave comes from a shortening of the Old French esclave which is from the Latin sclava which means captive.
If someone is a captive, they are held against their free will. Removal of free will must be immoral in a Christian sense since it is something given by God (and man would have no right to take it away). The problem exists when, for whatever reason, the term has been expanded to describe other people who are not necessarily captives. Someone selling themselves into service are simply entering a work contract (even if such a contract would not be legal today, it was then). They are not slaves in the sense of the original term. They are not captured and their free will removed involuntarily. It's fine that they are called slaves because language is dynamic and needs to deal with new things and new concepts and often enough we use the same word to have many meanings. The problem arises when two different groups insist on apply different (though all absolutely acceptable and accurate) meanings of a term and then argue the other is wrong when in fact both are right and the word or term simply requires context or clarification to understand which meaning is being used. Farwarden Creac Peregrinate
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