So if situations dictate action, why wouldn't it be okay to negotiate with some countries that do things we don't like?I suspect that this happens all the time. The issue here I think is negotiate what and with whom within those countries.
-Ed
The official Prexus message board that won't sell out.
0 Kudo
GWB's recent statements
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 Blackedward |
#76 | |||
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Posts: 2384 05-21-08 3:28 PM |
-Ed |
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Gandol teh Pirate |
#77 | |||
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Posts: 2268 05-21-08 3:37 PM Time-traveling
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Negotiation isn't the formula bro, it's what you put on the negotiating table in each unique situation that's formulaic. The formula will be
influenced by what's at stake, what the fall-back options are for each of the participants, and so on. It's hardly a static scenario.
Zarr's contextualized position on slavery:
For a humorous example, I sold myself as a slave at a charity auction once. I ended up spending the day chopping wood at a farm. It's slavery, but it's far from immoral. |
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Blackedward |
#78 | |||
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Posts: 2384 05-21-08 4:44 PM |
Negotiation isn't the formula bro, it's what you put on the negotiating table in each unique situation that's formulaic. The formula will be influenced by what's at stake, what the fall-back options are for each of the participants, and so on. It's hardly a static scenario.That sounds very much like what I posted a few posts back. Are we talking past each other? -Ed |
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Cinabre |
#79 | |||
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Posts: 2927 05-21-08 4:45 PM Big Blue Cat in Warrior Garb |
There-in lies the problem Gandol. Iran has, like Iraq, thumbed its nose at various UN sanctions over the years. They really don't care what the rest of the
world says as long as they have the money to buy whatever they want and someone willing to take that money. I'm quite sure Iran has learned all the tricks
that Iraq used in "negotiating" with the UN and would attempt similiar actions if sanctions were imposed and enforced against them. What bargaining
chip do you think Obama coud use to convince them that their actions or in-action will have consequences? Clinton flat out said she would obliterate them if
they nuked Israel and Obama said that such a response was reckless. To me, that says he's taken that option off the table, which gives the Iranians a leg
up in negotiations if they know that option wouldn't be used by him. I'm really curious to know what you and others think he could do or say to
convince them to change course and rejoin the rest of the world in advancing freedom and rights for their people.
Many times in battle, one might lose their mind, their life, their soul. What makes them a Marine is that they entered combat knowing the price they might pay, and chose to enter it anyway. |
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Physic FormerlyHasRez |
#80 | |||
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Posts: 1430 05-21-08 10:52 PM |
I don't have a problem with the US using mediators if we wished to open a dialoge with Iran (good, because we have been doing that for a while :) the bush administration has had more direct conversations with iran via the state department than anybody since carter. of course, fish, cafu, kayso, and gandol either dont pay any attention to the news, or are choosing to be deliberately obtuse. they seem to be posting recent news articles so i'm guessing the later. |
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Gandol teh Pirate |
#81 | |||
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Posts: 2268 05-22-08 12:22 AM Time-traveling
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I thought we were critiquing the folks here who are against such action...
Zarr's contextualized position on slavery:
For a humorous example, I sold myself as a slave at a charity auction once. I ended up spending the day chopping wood at a farm. It's slavery, but it's far from immoral. |
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Kayso Gnomehater |
#82 | |||
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Posts: 4589 05-22-08 1:56 AM BANNED |
Blackedward wrote: That I can respect. It makes sense. Even if I don't agree, it's a valid argument.
But most critics aren't just saying it's a bad idea for President Obama to talk to the old Iranian version of Jake Gyllenhaal. They're saying "oh noes that evil Obama hates America and is soft on terrorism because he will negotiate with terrorists". Again, it's all about being able to be recognize complexities and nuance imo. Sometimes you talk to terrorists. Sometimes you kill them. Sometimes you do both. In the end it should be all about achieving our goals, not oversimplification of complex issues into bumperstickers. |
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Fishbeak |
#83 | |||
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Posts: 2332 05-22-08 8:17 AM |
the bush administration has had more direct conversations with iran via the state department than anybody since carter.
damn those nazi appears. damn them to hell. of course, fish, cafu, kayso, and gandol either dont pay any attention to the news, or are choosing to be deliberately obtuse. they seem to be posting recent news articles so i'm guessing the later. I can't speak for the others but in my case you're just trying to shoe horn my opinion into one of your pre-defined slots. Do you have a pre-defined label for the administration is failing? Regardless of whatever low level contacts they're having if the president equates talking to Iran to nazi appeasement they are obviously not taking something seriously. Which is it? The talks with Iran or their own rhetoric? Or maybe they think being a nazi appeaser is a good thing and they're remarkably consistent. The administration isn't doing enough and they're doing it wrong. If it would damn me to an even worse seat in hell I'd post a big fail picture.
Borofin's bitch
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Aielman KajiraLiege |
#84 | |||
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Posts: 4608 05-22-08 10:41 AM |
Fishbeak wrote:There is a rather large difference between communication and negotiation. peace, Aielman "There are no stupid questions...but there certainly are a LOT of inquisitive idiots" Husband, Father, Squisher of bugs.
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Fishbeak |
#85 | |||
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Posts: 2332 05-22-08 12:08 PM |
So... they're talking about the weather then?
WTF Aeil. You keep telling us you're way smarter than the rest of us. C'mon. If they're not negotiating wtf are the communicating about? This fall's burkka colors?
Borofin's bitch
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Gandol teh Pirate |
#86 | |||
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Posts: 2268 05-22-08 12:11 PM Time-traveling
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Actually, I'm trying to reconcile what Aielman said with what Physic said and can't exactly wrap my head around it. If somebody else can, please do.
Zarr's contextualized position on slavery:
For a humorous example, I sold myself as a slave at a charity auction once. I ended up spending the day chopping wood at a farm. It's slavery, but it's far from immoral. |
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Fishbeak |
#87 | |||
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Posts: 2332 05-22-08 12:13 PM |
I'm sure we just failed to read Aeil correctly ;)
He'll be along soon to tell us how consistently wrong and stupid we are.
Borofin's bitch
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Gandol teh Pirate |
#88 | |||
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Posts: 2268 05-22-08 12:24 PM Time-traveling
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I'm sure that reading comprehension and our collective stupidity have "fuck all" to do with it. But seriously, my question from the previous post
is asked with sincerity.
Zarr's contextualized position on slavery:
For a humorous example, I sold myself as a slave at a charity auction once. I ended up spending the day chopping wood at a farm. It's slavery, but it's far from immoral. |
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Cafu07 |
#89 | |||
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Posts: 1874 06-03-08 12:55 PM |
Pedantic Ass,
Cafu   
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ZydallonTrismegistus |
#90 | |||
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Posts: 1336 06-03-08 2:19 PM It's Good to be Germane
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You keep telling us you're way smarter than the rest of us.
Actually, that would be the collective Obama Jock Carrying squad around here. The condescension and name calling coming off that particular segment is pretty spectacular. They're acting exactly like what they accuse Aielman and others of doing. |
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Cinabre |
#91 | |||
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Posts: 2927 06-03-08 2:28 PM Big Blue Cat in Warrior Garb |
Cafu07 wrote: I don't think any of us, except maybe Borofin, has said we should not meet with those we have problems with. What we did say, and the Gallop poll does not address, was that there should be consessions and preliminary meetings first. Obama made the mistake of saying he would meet directly with the leaders of Iran, N. Korea, etc. and has only recently realized the error of his ways and changed it to depending upon concessions/pre-conditions. Many times in battle, one might lose their mind, their life, their soul. What makes them a Marine is that they entered combat knowing the price they might pay, and chose to enter it anyway. |
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Borofin |
#92 | |||
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Posts: 3238 06-03-08 6:24 PM Community Member |
Thanks for mischaracterizing me. The poll is ridiculous and Obama is a fool.
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Physic FormerlyHasRez |
#93 | |||
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Posts: 1430 06-03-08 10:56 PM |
About 6 in 10 Americans (59%) think it would be a good idea for the president of the United States to meet with the president of Iran/shrug ok so 59% of people polled in this survey are fucking morons or the survey was conducted of dailykos posters. |
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Cafu07 |
#94 | |||
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Posts: 1874 06-03-08 11:44 PM |
I'm a little confused. In what way would our current relationship with Iran worsen if Obama met with them? What progress have we made in the last eight
years that could be adversely affected?
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fatesdefiance |
#95 | |||
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Posts: 3109 06-03-08 11:47 PM Community Member |
Give a rat a cookie...
Hunter Tarryn Valewalker -- Twisted Fates
(Prexus - Retired) Nightshade Tarryn Valewalker -- Kingfisher Brigade EQ2 - Unrest Tarryn of Dale, Hunter -- Dies Irae LotRO - Meneldor |
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Cafu07 |
#96 | |||
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Posts: 1874 06-04-08 1:19 AM |
fatesdefiance wrote: and he'll be eating out of your hand? What? I am not familiar with that colloquialism.
Pedantic Ass,
Cafu
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fatesdefiance |
#97 | |||
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Posts: 3109 06-04-08 4:01 AM Community Member |
...and he will want a glass of milk. (Technically, it's "mouse", but I figured "rat" was more appropriate considering who we're
talking about.)
Hunter Tarryn Valewalker -- Twisted Fates
(Prexus - Retired) Nightshade Tarryn Valewalker -- Kingfisher Brigade EQ2 - Unrest Tarryn of Dale, Hunter -- Dies Irae LotRO - Meneldor |
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Cinabre |
#98 | |||
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Posts: 2927 06-04-08 5:14 AM Big Blue Cat in Warrior Garb |
fatesdefiance wrote: We already did offer them quite a lot, during the Clinton years, but they chose to not accept. This "let's talk to them" idea only works if
both sides are willing to listen. Iran doesn't give a rats ass what anyone offers them otherwise they would have already changed their ways.
Many times in battle, one might lose their mind, their life, their soul. What makes them a Marine is that they entered combat knowing the price they might pay, and chose to enter it anyway. |
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Aielman KajiraLiege |
#99 | |||
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Posts: 4608 06-04-08 8:29 AM |
Fishbeak wrote:
Oh, I'm sorry...I didn't mean to step on Kayso and Gandol's toes there.
Negotiating between sovereign states is usually a pretty formal affair with
very stratified and defined protocols. And you never...ever...start with your leader. It just isn't done.
I'm sure that reading comprehension and our collective stupidity have "fuck all" to do with it. But seriously, my question from the previous post is asked with sincerity Well you're a smart guy. Start with the definitions of the two words and work your way forward. Perhaps it will come to you.
"There are no stupid questions...but there certainly are a LOT of inquisitive idiots" Husband, Father, Squisher of bugs.
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Fishbeak |
#100 | |||
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Posts: 2332 06-04-08 10:24 AM |
If you don't stop buildilng nuclear weapons we're going to wax your Persian ass?
Negotiate: to deal or bargain with another or others, as in the preparation of a treaty or contract or in preliminaries to a business deal. to arrange for or bring about by discussion and settlement of terms: to negotiate a loan. to manage; transact; conduct: He negotiated an important business deal. Hmmm... sounds like negotiating to me. Albeit a blunt force and probably not effective negotiating technique. Your position is nonsensical Aeil. Let make sure I am understanding you though... We're communicating with Iran but we're not negotiating with them. Again I ask the question because you failed to answer it - why are we communicating with them? What are we communicating about? Our president says if we negotiate with them it's equal to nazi appeasement. So what exactly are we talking to them about?
Borofin's bitch
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Blackedward |
#101 | |||
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Posts: 2384 06-04-08 10:58 AM |
He makes sense Fish.
The United States is communicating with Iran. The President of the United States is not negotiating, personally, with the president of Iran. Nor should he in my opinion given the rhetoric that has been promoted by the Powers that Be in Iran. -Ed |
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Aielman KajiraLiege |
#102 | |||
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Posts: 4608 06-04-08 11:52 AM |
Fishbeak wrote:Well then you plainly don't understand the definitions of the words. Your position is nonsensical Aeil.No...actually it's not. Your lack of understanding of basic english is nonsensical. Let make sure I am understanding you though...Yes. That would be correct. Again I ask the question because you failed to answer it - why are we communicating with them?Well gee. Why would you think as a nation we'd want to communicate with elements of Iran's government? What do you think we are we communicating about? Our president says if we negotiate with them it's equal to nazi appeasementYes. Our president is given to useless hyperbole. So what exactly are we talking to them about?We talk to them about all sorts of things. For example...We let them know that when we're moving a carrier group through the Straights of Hormuz and into the gulf, that it's not headed their way to attack. Yes...I know it seems obvious, but it something you do when you're moving a large military group past someone's territory...even if they're not a friendly nation. And no...it doesn't really give away any intelligence...it's kind of hard to hide when you move 20+ warships, one of which being a carrier, into a relatively narrow straight. We talked to them when we added a second carrier group to the area. Occassionally, we make threats. They make threats as well. Sometimes, we dangle carrots. They usually refuse said carrots. Various low level diplomats keep in contact with their counterparts. Our navies in the area maintain communications for things as simple as making sure they don't run into one another. Our air controllers maintain communication with their air controllers. There is also indirect communcation. The US will pass messages through third parties, like Cyprus, when we want to let the Iranians know something but we don't want to communicate directly. There's all sorts of communcations between the US and Iran...none of which are negotiations. peace, Aielman "There are no stupid questions...but there certainly are a LOT of inquisitive idiots" Husband, Father, Squisher of bugs.
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