http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/03/24/2197401.htm
Check back in 3 years - should be interesting.
Check back in 3 years - should be interesting.
The official Prexus message board that won't sell out.
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 creac |
Oxford University to investigate religion |
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Posts: 2121 03-24-08 1:22 AM Mortal Wombat |
Farwarden Creac Peregrinate
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Snaille |
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Posts: 275 03-24-08 3:27 AM |
"But it might, in fact, help us to understand why people are predisposed to think in particular ways."
Get em young, whilst their minds instinctively rely upon the word of mother and father. Saved em all that money. Send me the check! |
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Ididar Tzan |
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Posts: 2497 03-24-08 6:27 AM |
We're not predisposed towards religion, we're predisposed towards finding patterns.
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 vizco |
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Posts: 3037 03-24-08 7:22 AM Raid Peon |
Give me the $4 million and I'll write their final report now and save them three years. Or, if they want, I'll take $3 million and wait three years to
give it. Bargain!
 Harmony of Souls : My Quiver All this science I don't understand; it's just my job five days a week. |
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Gandol teh Pirate |
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Posts: 2264 03-25-08 4:34 AM Time-traveling
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We're not predisposed towards religion, we're predisposed towards finding patterns.I'm a little surprised you'd point to this as evidence of any sort though. As we've seen with our countless circular arguments with Zarr and sometimes Falk, the only pattern we (you and I, and some others) can find is the recurrence of circular reasoning. Patterns in the natural world don't lend themselves to supernatural explanation, especially in the age of Reason. And yet, people do ascribe events to an omnipotent being. The Oxford study doesn't sound like it'll be one of religion so much as it will be a narrow view of the human psyche. That's a big difference.
Borofin tells you:
Not you, jagoff... You are obviously lying in claiming ignorance of whom I was addressing. But lying is natural for you, isn't it? Go away you Bay area, anti-American leftist pos. |
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Ididar Tzan |
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Posts: 2497 03-25-08 7:07 AM |
If we were born fresh into the current age you might have a point. But, we developed towards this point and so we have inhereted a lot of the assumptions of
the past. They've been modified to fit more closely with the science that has come about but generally they're still the same assumptions based on
erroneous patterns observed millenia ago. Like someone said here in the past ... its no coincidence that since science has started to explain a whole lot about
the world the frequency of miracles has dropped drastically and the ones that still are claimed are very vague and less "in your face". Lets face it,
when they had no other explanation they used whatever deity they believed in to explain things. He was generally all-powerful so if nobody else could explain
it then nobody was going to object when you attributed it to your local deity. Doesn't mean that some sort of deity doesn't exist ... but I'd say
that most of the miracles explained by various religions were moreso ignorance than miracle.
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Eleazarr |
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Posts: 2805 05-09-08 1:39 PM Father Mulcahy |
Get em young, whilst their minds instinctively rely upon the word of mother and father.I think you do a disservice to science. There is a lot more to faith than this "get em young" sort of narrow view of the whole thing that you possess. You make it sound as though people of faith are weak-minded and completely incapable of thinking critically. You make it seem as though no one comes to faith once they pass the age of 16. You make it sound as though religion and faith have no intellectual playing field when the reality is that there are departments of religious education at countless secular universities as well as theological, graduate-level seminaries all over the world. The reality is also that there are piles of people who come to faith later in life. Your whole "get em young, whilst their minds rely upon the word of mother and father" falls sadly short of any real sort of scientific explanation.
"Imagination does not breed insanity. Exactly what does breed
insanity is reason. Poets do not go mad; but chess-players do. Mathematicians go mad; but creative artists very seldom. I am not attacking logic: I only say
that this danger does lie in logic, not in imagination."
-G.K. Chesterton |
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Morkenlar |
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Posts: 1890 05-09-08 1:49 PM |
I think you do a disservice to science. There is a lot more to faith than this "get em young" sort of narrow view of the whole thing that you possess. You make it sound as though people of faith are weak-minded and completely incapable of thinking critically. You make it seem as though no one comes to faith once they pass the age of 16. You make it sound as though religion and faith have no intellectual playing field when the reality is that there are departments of religious education at countless secular universities as well as theological, graduate-level seminaries all over the world. The reality is also that there are piles of people who come to faith later in life. Your whole "get em young, whilst their minds rely upon the word of mother and father" falls sadly short of any real sort of scientific explanation.I dunno. I certainly think there would be less believers if children weren't brainwashed into things before they had the intellectual and emotional maturity to decide for themselves. Don't you think church numbers go down if less kids are raised in the church?
Mork
"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul" |
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Eleazarr |
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Posts: 2805 05-09-08 2:57 PM Father Mulcahy |
Why is it that the chuch is the only one doing the brainwashing? Why do we teach kids anything at all? Why don't we let them figure out everything by
themselves? I don't buy this whole brainwashing crap. We all teach kids things that will benefit them in life. Why is it only faith communities that are
guilty of this? How come the government is let off the hook when they set the curriculum?
Have you ever considered that when you don't teach your kids about God that you are, in effect, actually teaching them something about God? You are, in effect, brainwashing them to think a certain way about God? I don't care what you say, all parents are teaching their kids about God. The difference is in what they are teaching them about God.
"Imagination does not breed insanity. Exactly what does breed
insanity is reason. Poets do not go mad; but chess-players do. Mathematicians go mad; but creative artists very seldom. I am not attacking logic: I only say
that this danger does lie in logic, not in imagination."
-G.K. Chesterton |
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Ersiusp |
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Posts: 2294 05-09-08 3:03 PM 1-900-Santa |
Eleazarr wrote: Teaching nothing and letting them decide later is different than ramming stuff down their throat before they're old enough to decide what is right for themselves. |
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Morkenlar |
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Posts: 1890 05-09-08 3:13 PM |
Why is it that the chuch is the only one doing the brainwashing?Who made that claim? Why do we teach kids anything at all?So they can function in society. Because it is moronic to expect them to invent calculus, chemistry, etc. On the other hand, it is quite acceptable to let them decide their own values (within some reasonable constraints, for the good of society, of course). Why is it only faith communities that are guilty of this? How come the government is let off the hook when they set the curriculum?They aren't, and they don't. It is also BS, for instance, when teachers try to brainwash political ideology into kids. (raise your hand if you were taught in school that we would use all ALL of our non-renewable resources by the mid-90s. That is one that sticks out in my mind, as it was given as a "scientific truth" to kids that had no way to know better, to get them into the "save the earth, stop those evil corporations!" mindset. Have you ever considered that when you don't teach your kids about God that you are, in effect, actually teaching them something about God? You are, in effect, brainwashing them to think a certain way about God? I don't care what you say, all parents are teaching their kids about God. The difference is in what they are teaching them about God.I'm sorry, teaching kids how to reason and analyse and make decisions for themselves is now brainwashing? Come off it, Zarr, and just admit that trying to sell christianity to rational adults is a harder sell than to children,
Mork
"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul" |
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Zaramus |
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Posts: 177 05-10-08 3:32 PM |
I don't care what you say, all parents are teaching their kids about God. The difference is in what they are teaching them about God.I normally don't post in this forum but I had to reply to this one. The only way that sentance makes sense is if the speaker belives in a god. If you don't believe in a god and you don't teach your kid about god then you aren't teaching your kid about god. If you believe in god and do or don't teach them about god then you could be teaching them about god in your own way. My perferance would be to not expose them to anything about faith untill they themselves can make up thier own mind. Mind you, I only mean "expose" in the sense of teaching and explaining. they will see enough in books, TV, the internet , ect.. The arguement of not teaching them anything and letting them learn themselves is silly. Facts are facts. Faith is not fact. You can teach solid hard facts all day long and it only helps. You teach faith and you can help or hurt them depending on the view of the faith. I don't know if any of the faiths are correct so I am damn sure not going to try to sway someone into believe one or another. faith is and should be a personal matter. "Yours" is the only mind anyone has the right to change, at least in my opinion.
Zaramus
Chosen Circle-Prexus |
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Cinabre |
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Posts: 2917 05-10-08 4:31 PM Big Blue Cat in Warrior Garb |
Zaramus wrote:Not trying to speak for Zarr but the sentence does make sense if you think about it. If you are teaching your children to obey, respect their elders, have manners, treat each other with respect, not be cruel, and love others, you are in fact teaching them about God. You just aren't attributing those values to faith and a belief in God, which is the second part of his sentence. Many times in battle, one might lose their mind, their life, their soul. What makes them a Marine is that they entered combat knowing the price they might pay, and chose to enter it anyway. |
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Zaramus |
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Posts: 177 05-10-08 6:18 PM |
Just because you teach your kids to be good and honest doesnt mean your teaching them about god. That means your teaching them to be good people.
You could just as well say teaching them to stone gays and scacrifice sheep is teaching them about god and therefore teaching them to be good. ( which I don't agree with, just making a point ) God and faith are not the same thing just as faith and religion aren't the same thing.
Zaramus
Chosen Circle-Prexus |
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Cinabre |
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Posts: 2917 05-10-08 6:30 PM Big Blue Cat in Warrior Garb |
You are teaching them the ways of God, which can be inferred as teaching them about God. As I said earlier, you just aren't attributting it to God.
Many times in battle, one might lose their mind, their life, their soul. What makes them a Marine is that they entered combat knowing the price they might pay, and chose to enter it anyway. |
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creac |
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Posts: 2121 05-10-08 6:56 PM Mortal Wombat |
Cin - change "God" for "Society". Society exists and is real, so why would you be teaching them about God when such things are simply and
directly attributable to Society? Just because you, or anyone, believes these are traits of God doesn't mean that teachning those values is teaching about
God when those values are attributable elsewhere.
It would be reasonable to say that if you're teaching them about Satan or Angels or the like (but not referencing God directly) that you are in fact teaching them about God because such things are not attributable to any other reasonable source. Farwarden Creac Peregrinate
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Kayso Gnomehater |
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Posts: 4567 05-10-08 7:05 PM BANNED |
Once Oxford gets to the bottom of this, I hope they can get to the bottom of that Harry Potter. I have a sneaking suspicion he's not real either.
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Cinabre |
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Posts: 2917 05-10-08 7:18 PM Big Blue Cat in Warrior Garb |
Understand Creac. Just pointing out how it could be viewed that way, not necessarily that I don't believe the same could be said about society.
Many times in battle, one might lose their mind, their life, their soul. What makes them a Marine is that they entered combat knowing the price they might pay, and chose to enter it anyway. |
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Muerta |
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Posts: 2582 05-11-08 5:58 AM Legend in the making... |
I think Zarr's statement is an interesting one. 1. A parent can tell a child about God 2. A parent can tell a child that God does not exist 3. A parent can say nothing about God Each of those is influencing how a child might develop a relationship, and any of those can lead to a positive or negative relationship with the child and God. Even by saying nothing, the parent is stating that the child is allowed to examine God in their own way.
Arianna Huffington (on McCain and Iraq): It's his Viagra.
Steven Colbert: I guess then the warning label should be, if your erection lasts more than 100 years, pull out! |
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Afmo |
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Posts: 2327 05-11-08 4:37 PM
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Why is it that the chuch is the only one doing the brainwashing? Why do we teach kids anything at all? Why don't we let them figure out everything
by themselves? I don't buy this whole brainwashing crap. We all teach kids things that will benefit them in life. Why is it only faith communities that are
guilty of this? How come the government is let off the hook when they set the curriculum?
probably because we teach kids things that can be empirically proven. there's no fault in teaching the things we can observe and quantify. |
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Eleazarr |
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Posts: 2805 05-11-08 11:58 PM Father Mulcahy |
I think Zarr's statement is an interesting one.Thank you Muerta. That's pretty much what I meant. The only thing that I would add is that saying nothing about God is still teaching your kids something about God. It says either that you don't think it's a subject worth discussing or that you don't care what your kid thinks about God. Either way, you are still teaching your kid something about God. If you are an agnostic and your kid grows up to be an agnostic... isn't that brianwashing? See what I mean? This whole brainwashing argument is just stupid. How many posters here grew up going to some sort of church and now no longer attend? Did the brain washing just not stick? The whole brainwashing angle is just silly I think.
"Imagination does not breed insanity. Exactly what does breed
insanity is reason. Poets do not go mad; but chess-players do. Mathematicians go mad; but creative artists very seldom. I am not attacking logic: I only say
that this danger does lie in logic, not in imagination."
-G.K. Chesterton |
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Ganders |
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Posts: 2409 05-12-08 2:58 AM |
If you are an agnostic and your kid grows up to be an agnostic... isn't that brianwashing? I wouldn't say so, no - as agnostics simply say "we don't know one way or the other", I don't think you can charge them with brainwashing. It's the only point on the faith spectrum that doesn't make unproveable statements about the "truth" of deities. Telling your kids that God (or the absence thereof) is a fact is an outright lie - worse, it's a lie with no benefit beyond propogating your own faith. Hell, I'm an atheist and I wouldn't tell my hypothetical kids that there was no God. I'd tell them about as many faith positions as I could, and let them figure it out by themselves.
I support indoctrination in the schools starting at kindergarten promoting homosexual parity and normality, environmental
catastrophism, white guilt, and American unexceptionalism
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Muerta |
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Posts: 2582 05-12-08 5:09 AM Legend in the making... |
Well, Ganders, that is just proof that there is intelligent life out there . . . 
Arianna Huffington (on McCain and Iraq): It's his Viagra.
Steven Colbert: I guess then the warning label should be, if your erection lasts more than 100 years, pull out! |
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Feydakin Rainsong |
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Posts: 5124 05-12-08 6:30 AM Wholly Shi'ite |
The only thing that I would add is that saying nothing about God is still teaching your kids something about God. My parents never said anything about fluid dynamics and compressible flow when I was growing up... what did they teach me about that subject?
"Our great war is a spiritual war. Our great depression.... is our lives."
Have you met Tyler Durden? 
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Morkenlar |
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Posts: 1890 05-12-08 6:59 AM |
If you are an agnostic and your kid grows up to be an agnostic... isn't that brianwashing?Simple answer to a complex question: it depends, but usually not. Agnostics, generally speaking, are people that make decisions based on evidence, and are intellectually honest enough to admit when something isn't known. Teaching a kid to be intellectually honest, or to make decisions based on facts isn't brainwashing imo, though if you're up for making a case that it is, I'd be willing to hear it. The point about brainwashing, while present for atheists, is nowhere near as strong as it is for religons, because atheists don't have to rely upon the innocence and credulity of children to convince them of some of the crazy things that religon(s) tell people. Atheists just have to convince people of a certainty that simply isn't there, while religons have to convince people that God killing all the firstborn in Egypt, to give a demonstration in support of his people, after first having "hardened the heart" of the pharoh, thus preventing anything other than a murderous demonstration from working, was because he loved us. It's just . . . nonsensical. And adults see that easier than children, so they try to get the children to agree it is true, before they can understand the complexities (or even basic concept, a lot of the time) of it. This whole brainwashing argument is just stupid. How many posters here grew up going to some sort of church and now no longer attend? Did the brain washing just not stick?I'd say that is pretty much what happens, yeah.
Mork
"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul" |
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Ididar Tzan |
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Posts: 2497 05-12-08 7:10 AM |
Eleazarr wrote:Or option three, you do care what your kid thinks about God but you don't want to force them to take the path you did. You want them to make up their own mind about religion in general by reading on their own when they're old enough to fathom the depth and breadth of what they're reading. Personally, I think driving any position on religion into a kid's head when they're too young to understand the full scope of what they're learning is wrong. Whether you be athiest or hindu or christian or muslim ... I think you should wait until they're old enough to intellectually grasp what you're saying. Problem is, many religions throw the spectre of doom over not teaching the kid early so people of faith generally do it right away. |
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Eleazarr |
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