http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341574,00.html
At some point, this shit becomes abuse and the parents should be held responsible.
At some point, this shit becomes abuse and the parents should be held responsible.
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Girl dies while parents pray
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 Morkenlar |
Girl dies while parents pray |
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Posts: 1882 03-26-08 5:44 AM |
Mork
"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul" |
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Ididar Tzan |
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Posts: 2450 03-26-08 6:54 AM |
If it wasn't for the praying they probably would be quickly accused of abuse and taken into custody. But, the second you toss a bit of religion into it all
of a sudden a lot of people back off and start second-guessing what's "right". Letting a child die like that is not right no matter how you try
to justify the actions of the parents.
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 Soygen |
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Posts: 7065 03-26-08 8:01 AM 100% Soybean |
"The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said."
On the bright side, these idiots might not be passing their genes along now. Ugh.
I'm not givin' you attitude. I just want another drink.
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Zifnab |
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Posts: 2603 03-26-08 9:39 AM |
They should be thrown in jail.
Ok that was my knee jerk reaction. They have three more kids and I'm sure that despite their idiocy in not seeking treatment for their daughter they love their children very much. I don't think it would be to the rest of their children's benefit to take thir parents away from them... |
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Soygen |
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Posts: 7065 03-26-08 9:45 AM 100% Soybean |
So the surviving 3 kids should have to remain with their mentally ill parents?
I'm not givin' you attitude. I just want another drink.
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Zifnab |
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Posts: 2603 03-26-08 9:49 AM |
The law puts an extremely high value on keeping families together.
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Soygen |
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Posts: 7065 03-26-08 9:50 AM 100% Soybean |
I would hope they put a higher value on keeping families alive.
I'm not givin' you attitude. I just want another drink.
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Ersiusp |
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Posts: 2258 03-26-08 9:56 AM 1-900-Santa |
Those parents are too selfish to keep their remaining children. Choosing to cling to their comfortable delusions rather than get treatment for their dying
child...words fail to express my disgust.
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Afmo |
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Posts: 2305 03-26-08 10:21 AM
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Ok that was my knee jerk reaction. They have three more kids and I'm sure that despite their idiocy in not seeking treatment for their daughter
they love their children very much. I don't think it would be to the rest of their children's benefit to take thir parents away from them...
and anyone capable of allowing their child to die while they think that praying is going to save her are not mentally fit to take care of the remaining ones. Couple that with saying she died because "they didn't have enough faith" and that "she could still be resurrected" the parents are obviously mentally ill. Having religion is fine, but there is a line, and this couple jumped headfirst over it. I'm appalled that the authorities say that there is "no reason to remove the other kids, there's no abuse or signs of abuse." Apparently a dead little girls isn't enough abuse for them. |
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Fishbeak |
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Posts: 2269 03-26-08 10:40 AM |
Freedom of religion is near absolute.
I think the only time it can be debated is when it harms someone. So I think it's legitimate to discuss it here. However since these folks lost a child I am going to go out on a limb and say they have been punished already with something profoundly more devastating than anything the courts could toss at them. Let them grieve in peace.
Borofin's bitch
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Feydakin Rainsong |
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Posts: 5098 03-26-08 10:40 AM Wholly Shi'ite |
The family does not attend an organized church or participate in an organized religion This is what makes the story all the more tragic. If they were actually churchgoers, I could almost understand it - some denominations are just weird that way, but at least they can say, "Oh, we're such-and-such, we don't subscribe to medical intervention, it's God's will," and most people would just say "it's a shame your kid is going to die because you're so backwards, but hey, that's your right to practice your religion." But these people don't really have a faith to speak of, they just sort of think that "praying" and "having enough faith" (with no mention of what they have faith in) will solve their problems. I agree with others that say this isn't a matter of faith, it's a matter of mental fitness to care for their remaining children. To really drive the point home, would anyone opposed to taking the rest of their kids away still be opposed if, instead of saying they didn't belong to any church, they said they belonged to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or that they just needed to find the right kind of sugar cookies to attract a unicorn so they could trap it and take its tears to make a healing elixir for their daughter? At what point does this move from being a matter of faith to being a cop-out for letting their kid die? In this day and age, isn't it pretty reasonable to think that maybe if your kid is sick, you should pray for them to get better... while you're in the waiting room at the hospital or doctor's office? Praying and taking your kid to get medical attention aren't mutually exclusive activities.
A door is sometimes a jar, but a jar is never a door.
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Cinabre |
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Posts: 2867 03-26-08 10:51 AM Big Blue Cat in Warrior Garb |
I started to knee-jerk this earlier, but held off to give myself time to think. My thoughts are;
1) sucks that they lost a kid and it surely could have been prevented 2) the other kids should be taken away. No abuse my ass. If they let the one kid die for "lack of faith" what's going to keep one of the others from walking around disfigured after they break a leg and wait for a miracle to heal it. 3) prosecute them. If I leave my kid in a car and it dies due to my lack of action, you can bet that I will get charged. This is just a lack of action based upon "faith". Courts probably will not see it that way, but I sure feel the two are comparable/the same. Edit: Fixed minor word problem. Many times in battle, one might lose their mind, their life, their soul. What makes them a Marine is that they entered combat knowing the price they might pay, and chose to enter it anyway.
Last Edited By: Cinabre 03-26-08 12:03 PM.
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Federiko EQ |
#12 | ||||
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Posts: 3251 03-26-08 10:55 AM You can never have too |
The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said.Unfit to parent. Take the kids away from her for their own safety. |
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Cafu07 |
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Posts: 1834 03-26-08 10:56 AM |
Fishbeak wrote: Wow, that's a weird point of view. They can grieve in jail.
John McCain: He was against waterboarding before he was for it.
John McCain: He was for campaign finance reform before he ran for president. |
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Afmo |
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Posts: 2305 03-26-08 10:59 AM
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Fishbeak wrote: Punished enough? They let an 11 year old girl waste away and die from something that could have been treated. As far as i'm concerned they murdered
that girl. They haven't even begun to be punished in my eyes. The courts should have them executed for killing that girl. People like that have no place
in society. again, i agree with what has been said here, that if this wasn't about "praying" and god, then this would be a clear cut case of
neglect that resulted in the death of a child. There are so many other cases of child neglect that results in legal action against the parents, but add
religion to it and you can do whatever you want? fuck that. Lock these psychopaths up and let them grieve in jail...waiting for their ride on old sparky..
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Skeptic |
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Posts: 551 03-26-08 11:00 AM |
What you all don't realise is how this crap is being marketed for millions and millions of dollars. The story line goes something like this: God loves all his children. God really really wants to see you healthy and prosperous. God has made many promises to take care of us. Those promises can be claimed through faith, prayer, and affirmation. If you have enough faith, God will make you healthy and rich. If God doesn't make you healthy and rich, it's because you didn't have enough faith. The reasoning goes on to direct you further in your search for God's approval and his bestowing massive wealth and health upon you. If I think of any more of these statements I might add them but I think you get the idea. We call this crap the "name it and claim it" syndrome, because usually the behaviour the ministers prescribe includes something like naming what your demands are, and then claiming the "promise" that God made that he would give you whatever you asked. The adherents call it "The Word-Faith Movement" or "Word of Faith" or, amusingly, just "Faith". They take it very seriously, or rather they con their listeners into taking it seriously. They also make millions selling books and buying an hour a day on religious networks like Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN) and conning people into sending in donations. The more grateful you are, the more expectant you are of future riches, the more you'll send. And that's where the "Give to Get" Gospel comes in. As a sign of your submission to God's will, you must tithe. But not just tithe, you'll be so eager to submit to God's will that you'll deprive yourself of a major percentage of your money. Through this discipline, God will reward you by having amazing amounts of money miraculously drop in your lap. I was blanking on the names of the worst of these people so I went in search of a list. I found this one: "Kenneth Copeland, Gloria Copeland, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyers, Kenneth Hagin, Paul Crouch, Jan Crouch, Frederick Price." I'm embarrassed to admit I've heard these people rant. I don't know if these people caught the blind-faith disease from any of these snake-oil salesmen, but they sure did have the language down pat in the article that was posted. The usual line is, "If you have enough faith, God will honor his promise to you." Notice the parents said they figured they didn't have enough faith. --Diane
Last Edited By: Skeptic 03-26-08 11:07 AM.
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Kayso Gnomehater |
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Posts: 4422 03-26-08 11:03 AM BANNED |
Fuckin' Jesus. There are laws in some places against this, and where there aren't , there should be.
If you're an adult and you want to die in pain while using your time praying to space fairies instead of seeking medical care, great. In fact, I encourage it. But using your children as a test for your own superstitions is bullshit. Courts don't let people throw their kids off bridges because Jesus told them to. Why they let shit like this slide is beyond reason. Reminds me of those Twitchell assholes from MA. |
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wardogadmin |
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Posts: 86 03-26-08 11:16 AM |
prosecute them. If I leave my kid in a car and it dies due to make lack of action, you can bet that I will get charged. This is just a lack of action based upon "faith". Courts probably will not see it that way, but I sure feel the two are comparable/the same. Exactafuckingmundo
Snaggs
Retired Druid of Prexus What counts is not what sounds plausible, not what we would like to believe, not what one or two witnesses claim, but only what is supported by hard evidence rigorously and skeptically examined. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan |
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Afmo |
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Posts: 2305 03-26-08 11:26 AM
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I know it's harsh but freedom of religion ends when it endangers others. Period.
hell, its not even harsh...its light compared to what they deserve...i don't think anything short of letting them slowly waste away and die is punishment enough... |
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wardogadmin |
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Posts: 86 03-26-08 11:54 AM |
hell, its not even harsh...its light compared to what they deserve...i don't think anything short of letting them slowly waste away and die is punishment enough...Honestly, if it was up to me, I'd have them sterilized so they couldn't bring any more kids into the world and kill them with their stupid beliefs.
Snaggs
Retired Druid of Prexus What counts is not what sounds plausible, not what we would like to believe, not what one or two witnesses claim, but only what is supported by hard evidence rigorously and skeptically examined. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan |
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Gandol teh Pirate |
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Posts: 2252 03-26-08 12:02 PM Time-traveling
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This is merely a variant of what we see in arguing with Zarr; where does Biblical law end and human law begin?
A deist or even a humanist who believes in God can look at all of God's gifts and aside from Salvation, can and should conclude that His greatest gift to mankind is intellect. Intellect therefore should be used to serve us in creating a framework of morality, of civilization, of science (including health care), and so on. The issue here is one of degree toward fundamentalism. These people want to live as though they're from the Middle Ages and that's fine. But their right to religion is no more absolute than a Rastafarian's is where dope smoking is concerned; the parents have an obligation to their children to make reasonable health care available.
Borofin tells you:
Not you, jagoff... You are obviously lying in claiming ignorance of whom I was addressing. But lying is natural for you, isn't it? Go away you Bay area, anti-American leftist pos. |
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Galidin |
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Posts: 864 03-26-08 12:28 PM |
As a diabetic myself I can only say that is a horrible way to die.
I think we should put them in a giant pool of gasoline and light it on fire. If jesus wants them to be saved they can pray for the fire to go out and god will command it to go out. On the other hand if these disgusting wastes of human life let their daughter die a horrible death in god's name they are getting what they deserve. Galidin  |
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Maligzar |
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Posts: 797 03-26-08 12:40 PM |
Zifnab wrote: Do you think that the 11 year old they killed would have benefited having been removed from her parent's care? Rhetorical of course, but shouldn't
the same reasoning be applied to the rest of the kids conisdering it's highly likely that they will become diabetic as well?
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fatesdefiance |
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Posts: 3065 03-26-08 12:47 PM Community Member |
I'm always reminded of the story of the guy in the flood when I hear things like this. You probably all know a version of it, but it goes like this:
Hunter Tarryn Valewalker -- Twisted Fates
(Prexus - Retired) Nightshade Tarryn Valewalker -- Kingfisher Brigade EQ2 - Unrest Tarryn of Dale, Hunter -- Dies Irae LotRO - Meneldor |
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Loxodon2 |
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Posts: 9342 03-26-08 3:18 PM |
fatesdefiance wrote: Concur |
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Muerta |
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Posts: 2547 03-26-08 5:04 PM Legend in the making... |
Like Galidin points out, to die from diabetes is a horribly slow and painful death as your body just deteriorates and basically dissolves. It took her 30 days to die. Dehydration and inability to digest food most likely played a major role in this. Kidney and liver failure where toxins build up in her body to where she essentially poisons herself. Her body becomes so acidic that it becomes painful to move a muscle because she can not get rid of the acidic build-up in her blood, muscles and other tissues. And it is completely treatable with appropriate intervention. Even the Amish understand the importance of doctors and medical intervention. Historically, there have always been individuals who treated the seek within the realm of spirituality. These parents chose to ignore all warning signs and provide assistance to a child when praying was obviously not enough. They could eat, sleep, drink, breathe while their child slowly died because *their* personal faith said "no" to medical intervention. What about the child's? Did she believe the same?
My Life Summed Up on a Bumpersticker: Religion is for those who believe in Hell. Spirituality is for those who have already been there.
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Morkenlar |
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Posts: 1882 03-26-08 7:59 PM |
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