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Cinabre |
A huge class |
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Just read
this article on the NYTimes business section. I got a big chuckle out of who the guys bitching about Vista were. It will be interesting to watch this
progress through the courts and see what the outcome will be. They should make MS buy everyone a new laptop and give them a copy of XP Pro :) I've got
my copy of Vista that I had to jump through hoops to get from Asus during their "upgrade free" period, but have never been crazy enough to install
it.
Many times in battle, one might lose their mind, their life, their soul. What makes them a Marine is that they entered combat knowing the price they might pay, and chose to enter it anyway. |
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Feydakin Rainsong |
#1 | |||
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I've got Vista Ultimate on my new tablet PC. Aside from getting used to the security pop-ups and the differences in the Explorer interface for navigating
the filesystem, I haven't really had any major complaints. You can avoid a lot of the hassle of the security popups asking for an admin password by simply
running as an admin user all the time (though that kind of defeats the purpose). It is a resource hog, too, of course, but I have 4GB of RAM plus a 2GB SD card
as a turbo boost cache, so I don't really feel that much pain performance-wise.
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creac |
#2 | |||
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Do you see much benefit from the SD card? I understood that boosting wasn't all the useful once you got to 4GB of real RAM?
Farwarden Creac Peregrinate
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Federiko EQ |
#3 | |||
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My laptop only recognizes like 3.3GB of RAM. Stupid 32bit version.
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zeist prexus |
#4 | |||
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I kind of like Vista.
The security dialogs aren't that big of a deal. UAC itself is more of a problem with programs that were written before Vista was released (or haven't been fixed since then). For example, if you play EverQuest and you want to take a screenshot normally you'd click the "minus" key and the screenshot would appear in something like C:\Program Files\EverQuest\Screenshots. This can't happen in Vista with UAC on, since it won't allow programs to write to C:\Program Files without user interaction. It really should go in a different directory somewhere else and that is intentional. When you understand what is happening and why, then you can either decide to turn off UAC temporarily or permanently or maybe just ask SOE why their program won't function correctly with Vista so long after release. |
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Feydakin Rainsong |
#5 | |||
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I just stuck the SD card in there today and told it to use it as boost cache, so I haven't really seen a noticeable difference yet. My understanding of the
way it works is that it builds a cache over time of the most frequently accessed files, so I would have expected it to take a little bit of use to develop some
kind of pattern of usage. I'm also running 32-bit, and it only recognizes 3.3GB of the 4 installed.
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Loxodon2 |
#6 | |||
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i will convert only once they have 64 bit squared away and functional
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Cafu07 |
#7 | |||
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Vista seems to be right on schedule. I will probably start recommending it to people after their 2nd service pack is released, hopefully sometime in late 2009.
John McCain: He was against waterboarding before he was for it.
John McCain: He was for campaign finance reform before he ran for president. |
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Cinabre |
#8 | |||
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Think you missed the point of the class action Feyd. Yes, Vista will work on a new 2008 laptop with 4gb RAM and a decent video card. The suite is about
Microsoft certifying computer/laptops as "Vista Capable" when they were only "capable" of running the most stripped down version of Vista.
Judging from the internal communications circulated before release, MS was surely aware of this problem but decided to roll out Vista anyway.
Many times in battle, one might lose their mind, their life, their soul. What makes them a Marine is that they entered combat knowing the price they might pay, and chose to enter it anyway. |
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zeist prexus |
#9 | |||
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The biggest issue seems to be that Aero won't work well with IGP's, which I'd file under the category of "duh". Anyway, in that case it
would just mean that you'd want to turn Aero off and you'd still get most of the benefits of Vista. It's similar to the situation where people
would turn off the playskool default UI in XP, except in this case it is an actual performance issue instead of being an aesthetic issue although it really can
be both I guess.
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Cinabre |
#10 | |||
zeist prexus wrote:True. That's why you need to look at the marketing before the release. MS was showing off Aero big time, knowing full well before release that it would not work on many computers/laptops that were being sold as "Vista Capable". That's borderline false advertising or being deceitful, at least in my book. Many times in battle, one might lose their mind, their life, their soul. What makes them a Marine is that they entered combat knowing the price they might pay, and chose to enter it anyway. |
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Ididar Tzan |
#11 | |||
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Well, yeah ... kinda like every video game maker in the last five years of PC gaming. Show it in all its glory and then send out min specs that involve turning
off 80% of the things that make it look like it does on the screen. That sort of "min specs" deception is only going to get worse as the computer
hardware spread increases.
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Cinabre |
#12 | |||
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I don't see it that way Ididar. You don't buy this years flavor of Call of Duty with promises that the next version will have much better features and
that you'll get it for free. Huge difference between operating systems and games.
Many times in battle, one might lose their mind, their life, their soul. What makes them a Marine is that they entered combat knowing the price they might pay, and chose to enter it anyway. |
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Feydakin Rainsong |
#13 | |||
Think you missed the point of the class action Feyd. I wasn't really commenting on the class action, as much as I was addressing the more general complaints about Vista. Personally, I bitched about Vista since it's release and resisted switching, even though I'd never used it and experienced its flaws and quirks first hand. While it's certainly been frustrating, I can't really say it's much more frustrating than XP has been. In fact, since my plan was to replace my desktop PC at home with my tablet, I hatched a plan to stick that desktop into a closet and convert it into a media server machine that would allow me to use my XBox360 as a Media Center Extender. Despite the hardware being at least 2-3 years old (a dual-core 3GHz Intel chip on an Abit mobo with a GeForce 7600GT graphics card... hardly top-of-the-line any more), a clean install of Vista Ultimate went off without a hitch. Under XP I had an enormous headache installing the OS because of the required drivers for the onboard SATA RAID controller... Vista recognized everything without pause. I didn't have to manually install a single driver for any component, it was all handled by the installation and subsequent Windows Updates. On the other hand, I was considerably less reluctant to upgrade based on the fact that I had access to someone with access to the Microsoft Employee's Store who could get me a full copy of Ultimate for $50. If I'd had to pay full price, I probably would have dragged my feet a little, and more than likely would have just gone with a Home Premium Upgrade (making the upgrade process most likely a little less easy). I've long been a Micro$oft critic, but I'm coming to the realization that they're starting to do things better. In addition to Vista, I've picked up OneCare Live to provide my home network with virus/malware protection and it controls all kinds of stuff in the background for me, like disk defragging, automated backups (even automatically identifies shared storage on the network and asks if you want to back up each computer to it) and printer sharing. As much as I'm technically proficient, I don't really have a desire to spend a lot of time fooling around with my computer(s) - I just want them to work the way I want them to, and Microsoft seems to be figuring out that that's what a lot of people want, not just computer idiots, but people like me who screw around with computers for a living and the last thing I want to do when I get home is to have to be tweaking and fixing my own computer. All that said, I've also just recently bought my mother-in-law a MacBook Pro when she insisted she needed a laptop, and I plan to buy my wife an iMac in the near future, largely because of the simplicity of those platforms. It's been a struggle with the mother-in-law, of course, as anything computer-related is, because she insisted she needed to be able to play a particular Windows game on whatever laptop she ended up with, so I bought and installed Parallels and and created a Windows XP virtual machine for her. She kept insisting that she needed McAfee installed in XP on her MacBook, and I couldn't figure out why... Come to find out she starts up the MacBook, goes into the XP VM, and then uses that to browse the internet, rather than just using Safari and the Mac mail client in the primary OS. I predict I'll be instructing her on this several more times before it sinks in that Windows is not the only way to use a computer. As it is, I ended up trashing that XP partition and recreating it because she'd managed (as usual) to get infected with one of those malwares that starts popping up windows promoting some anti-malware crap that's really just more malware... Unfortunately, that's something that happens with her a couple times a year... she thinks she's smart enough to solve her own computer problems and typically just manages to make them worse... I was hoping to avoid that by giving her a Mac, but I shot myself in the foot, I guess... :) |
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Zitoh |
#14 | |||
Cafu07 wrote: My understanding is Windows 7 (Vistas replacement) is due out in 2009/2010.
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Cafu07 |
#15 | |||
Zitoh wrote: So I guess we'll be seeing that sometime in 2015 if their Vista timeline is any indication of future performance.
John McCain: He was against waterboarding before he was for it.
John McCain: He was for campaign finance reform before he ran for president. |
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Cinabre |
#16 | |||
Cafu07 wrote: I think it will be out sooner than 2015. MS has some serious egg on their face with Vista and they want to get away from it almost as bad as they wanted to shelve WindowsME and Bob. Many times in battle, one might lose their mind, their life, their soul. What makes them a Marine is that they entered combat knowing the price they might pay, and chose to enter it anyway. |
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Ididar Tzan |
#17 | |||
Cinabre wrote: I see it as exactly the same. What it boils down to is showing you one thing in a commercial and not really taking the time to explain the differences between what's on screen and what the minimum specs mean. They do it with operating systems and computer games. The only difference is that you end up using the operating system for years while you only end up playing the video game for a few weeks usually (unless we're talking mmorpg). But, there's no difference between showing you one level of performance on a commercial and then not explaining what it takes to get that sort of performance in a computer .... whether its an OS or a game. They're still hiding the truth behind the veil of specs. |
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Morkenlar |
#18 | |||
Come to find out she starts up the MacBook, goes into the XP VM, and then uses that to browse the internet, rather than just using Safari and the Mac mail client in the primary OS.ROFL. I can't help it, Fey. That is just funny. Wait til she finds some $3. program developed for DOS that a friend recommended, but that won't run in the virtual machine.
Mork
"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul" |
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Zifnab |
#19 | |||
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I am posting from my XP VM on an 8-core 8gig ram Power Mac with a 30" monitor...
I've had this particular XP desktop for about 6 years now.... It's hard to part with it! :) |
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Hordain Prima |
#20 | |||
Cinabre wrote: Rumor we've heard here is that the next Rev is based on the XP core with some of the sesksi from Vista (UI/general improvements/Microsoft SW security
assurance initiatives/etc).
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Zaramus |
#21 | |||
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I am not sure if this really worked or not, but it seemed too.
I Installed Vista Ultimate 64 on my Dell XPS 1710. 2 gigs of ram, 2.3 dual core Intel, and a 512 meg geforce 7950 go. My FP in WOW went from 60plus with XP to 20ish with Vista. SO I upgraded the the ram to 4 gigs. FPS did not change. Then I see that there a Vista Experience PC rating and I show my system rates a 1.0 overall. I couldn't believe it rated that low so I had it rescore the machine. I think it found the extra ram and new drivers becuse when it was done it rated the machine a overall 5.7 and now in WoW I can get 50 to 90 FPS depending on where I am. I Think the intial score was from the fresh install that didn't have the graphics, chipset, sata, and all the other drivers you have to mmanulally install. Once I reran the Experience cetification I "discovered" all that and ran better. Or maybe it was all luck. just weird that the performance kicked in after running it. This machine loves Vista now. That could be the extra two gigs or ram though.
Zaramus
Chosen Circle-Prexus |
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Cafu07 |
#22 | |||
Hordain Prima wrote: This would seem to make a lot of sense. Earlier in the thread Ididar mentioned the "hardware spread". Perhaps I don't correctly understand his meaning, but I think we are reaching a point where people don't feel they should need the ultimate gaming machine just to run the most recent OS from Microsoft. Sure, people have been saying for years that you can technically fulfill most user's needs with a stripped down linux distro on an old pentium system but people keep buying the latest/greatest anyway. But now I think people are becoming more interested in form factor and functionality than fancy window animation. For example, look at the popularity of the Asus EEE PC and the many smart phones out there. It seems like Microsoft is just assuming that computer technology will keep up with their bloated software, but more and more people seem to be not only comfortable with less, they actually want less.
John McCain: He was against waterboarding before he was for it.
John McCain: He was for campaign finance reform before he ran for president. |
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Ididar Tzan |
#23 | |||
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Yep, the hardware spread is really going to be changing the software market for a long time. Computer gaming is taking a big hit and future versions of office
software and operating systems are going to be seeing rapidly shrinking markets unless they take it into consideration.
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zeist prexus |
#24 | |||
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I don't think you're right. Really the only reason "hardware spread" has increased is because machines grow faster over time. So the fastest
of the fast machines will always be a little bit faster than they used to be when compared to the slowest possible computer you could have, which really only
changes when our collective definition of a computer changes. But if you have a system more than a few years old, you're still left with the fact that it
will run current software like shit.
You could argue that new software isn't necessary since old software is good enough, but you'd be wrong. It's not only a matter of features and performance, but of compatibility and something beyond features where whole new concepts are created that you didn't even know you wanted to/could do with a particular program or even a computer in general. There will always be people who want to cling to old tech, but they are generally wrong and eventually yield to the new hotness. I think we are reaching a point where people don't feel they should need the ultimate gaming machine just to run the most recent OS from Microsoft.Your current computer would have been the ultimate gaming machine of just a couple years ago. And it would have been bizarre alien technology to be studied by a team of scientists before that. Why have an accelerated video card at all? You could accomplish pretty much the same stuff if you just used a bunch of virtual terminals and screen. The line between eye candy and actual usability is blurred and is different for different people. |
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Cafu07 |
#25 | |||
zeist prexus wrote: We aren't talking about old tech. We are talking about new tech that is bought more for the design and usability than its benchmark scores against the latest desktop workstation. There's a whole new generation of UMPCs (ultra-mobile pcs) coming out and so far it seems like they are selling like hotcakes. (I'm personally waiting for the HP 2133 to come out: http://apcmag.com/8342/hp_preps_eee_pc_killer). It seems to me that the line between computers and products that are usually classified as "electronics" is blurring more and more. A good example that's been with us for years now would be the Tivo. Most people that have Tivos don't give a crap that they are technically computers. But there's a lot of examples out there. Many people think AMD acquired ATI to make more efficient integrated devices. Video games and office computers will keep the workstation market viable for the foreseeable future, but the market is becoming much bigger than workstations.
John McCain: He was against waterboarding before he was for it.
John McCain: He was for campaign finance reform before he ran for president. |
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Feydakin Rainsong |
#26 | |||
Most people that have Tivos don't give a crap that they are technically computers. This is where we get into the semantics game that makes the conversation hopeless. There are dozens of devices in practically everyone's home that are technically computers, ranging from your microwave to your digital alarm clock. The fact that my microwave is controlled by a computer doesn't mean I expect it to perform like a "computer." | ||||